[AaronB.]

Can you post a pic?

 

[AaronB.]

Biggest problem I see is he used SA products. I do not trust SA products.

As far as what should he have done, would it have been resonable for them to come up with a roof framing plan, contact you, de-frame, re-frame, and install the roofing system by the end of the workday? If it is, then your case is perfectly viable. This way, he fulfilled his contract to replace the roofing system, not re-frame the roof structure.

 

[AaronB.]

Illegal Torch moves me to BUR or Epdm or SPF, but definitely not to SA. It all comes down to the contract. Did he do everything as he stated and you two agreed to?

 

[AaronB.]

I hope it works out for you. I hope my forseen catastrophes never come to pass.

 

[AaronB.]

Because a state license board takes someone to arbitration means squat.

If he would have come back to you and said "We have to re-frame your roof" what would the answer have been? If he said "A tapered system is going to cost you about another 2 thousand" what would the response have been? I bet you would have tried to make him do it for free, stating he should have known there would be ponding water.

 

[AaronB.]

What the hell is going on with these message boards? Everybody is getting theor friggin panties all twisted.

mdshunk, it depends on the membrane and its water permeance rating. Why did you keep 10" of water of your roof?

Some roofs are designed to hold water to cool off the binder and prevent it from running.

And who is defending the leaky roofer? I saw nobody defending a leaky roofer.

 

[AaronB.]

OK, guys, since my original questions arent being answered, why, then, do people get so angry about change orders? Why do they get so pissed and accuse roofers of trying to rip them off, even in situations like this?

So really now....you have a roof torn off, the deck is fine, the structure is not rotted, there was no reason to suspect ponding water since there was none present before (allegedly). Even if you do string a line and check for ponding (which there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO DO), and you call the homeowner and say "I have strung a line on your roof to check for drainage, and you need to pay me three thousand dollars more than originally quoted for a tapered insulation system, and now the perimeter flashings will have to be re-fabricated and new nailers installed to accommodate the newflashing system that accomodates the tapered insulation.

How many homeowners would say "There was no ponding before, and now youre telling me I need tapered? OK, go ahead and do it."

More likely to be "You god... sonofa... youre trying to rip me off cuz there was never any ponding before you got there."

SO now what do you do? If you do not roof it back in, then youre liable for any damages if it rains while waiting for the homeowner to come here to the message boards for his answers. If you do roof it back in to make sure everything is dry, and do not eliminate the ponding, you will have a homeowner saying that you should have eliminated the ponding. It is BS

If you go ahead and install the necessary tapered insulation system to get rid of the ponding, you have just worked for free because the cheap assed homeowner is going to cause a stink no matter what you do, and try to deny payment for the tapered system that THEY NEEDED.

This thread is a baited BULLCHIT thread, with the homeowner trying to gather information on suing the roofer, though the homeowner probably denied having the necessary work done. Trying to get something for nothing most likely.

 

[AaronB.]

Oh, I agree, Mike. Seems like the residential customers just do not. When they sign a contract for XXX work, they tend to think it should be all-inclusive of every possible situation that could arise, even though this is the price for the stated scope of work. I may be wrong in this particular situation, but I have seen it too many times first-hand for it not to raise a red flag.

 

[AaronB.]

Aaron, - - I guess I just can't get it thru my thick skull why if it's such a common situation you wouldn't just spout a standard-issue statement before the job starts such as, - - "Just so you know, Mrs. Homeowner, as a many-years-experienced roofer I feel it is my duty to tell you as a professional courtesy that most old and existing roofs tend to sag in time, and therefore can potentially 'pond' water, so DO realize that our new roofing system, although guaranteed to be water-tight, will not address any previous and existing framing issues that may lead to such ponding. Now, if you'd like us to address those potential issues also . . . "

Thats some good advice, Tom. I will add that to my prososals. If there is evidence of standing water during the inspection, it is always adressed. In this particular scenario, none was reported, and none was observed.

I just wonder if the edge metal detail, being properly done, and therefore multi-layered, could be the cause. This would be even more prevalent the lower in slope you go. This is why the 48 hour rule is industry standard. On 1/8" in 12" slope, the build up of membrane plies will be thicker than the pitch of the roof. :sad:

 

[AaronB.]

I would still like to hear from the homeowner what he would have thought if the roofer had come back to him and asked for a change order that big.

 

[AaronB.]

After all, it aint like building a house or a room addition. When you do roofing, youre responsible for many years. In my area carpenters only have to warrant for a year, and this is the norm. Some of the more foolish in my area are giving out 10-15 year NDL waranties, but will probably not be around to honor them anyways.

 

[AaronB.]

I know ive spent more time on roofs than any one person should

 

[AaronB.]

So hows about dem Bears?

 

[AaronB.]

Aaron, I don't see much of a difference between SA mod bit and epdm. Both rely on basically the same type of adhesive for the seams. Honestly I think I'd prefer SA since it has mutiple layers and is much thicker. The only benefit I can see to EPDM is less seams.

DOnt forget more elongation, better UV stability, greater dimensional stability, 30 years of proven durability, seam tapes that blow the adhesives away, ability to lay 50' wide by 200' lenths seamlessly, minimal sealants. The biggest problem I have is it is merely a single ply system with no redundancies. The only reason to like self-adhered is you do not need a lot of skill to do it, which may be good for a homeowner looking to do his own shed, but as a professional installer, I see no performance benefits to SA's.

 

[AaronB.]

Medusa,

I am glad to hear there are still good people like you in the world. If you had opted to re-frame, who would have been responsible for the watertightness of the home between tear off and re-frame?

Now that I understand how youre doing this, I see a solution.

Since you would have opted to re-frame it yourself, then you would have needed a temporary water barrier. This is what you have now, IMO. So lets take this project to the next logical step, and re-frame on top of the temporary, and then put a real roof on top of it, no losses incurred.

Since this is exactly what you would have had to have done to do this job as properly as you would like, then what liability lies with the roofer?

 

[AaronB.]

Yes, grumps, uncoated EPDM has a service life about 30 years.

 

[AaronB.]

I have not seen many fully adhered EPDM roofs exhibit the shrinkage issues associated with cheapo loose-laid and ballasted EPDM roofs. This seems to be the deciding factor.

 

[AaronB.]

Grumpy, that is exactly what I was saying about the shrinkage, thanks for the link.

Medusa,

My point was this...Upon discovery of the ponding (which you also know nothing of, supposedly), you would still have needed to have a watertight membrane installed for the interim period between tearoff and re-framing. This is essentially what you have now. Frame thething on top of what is there and roof it, just as you would have to anyways.

Can you describe the roof assembly for me? Vapor retarder? Roof insulation? Bottom sheet attachment?

IMO, three ply mod bit systems are no better than single ply systems if the base plies are not set in hot asphalt or clod process. Only the mfg's count the base plies as roofing plies, and they do this to make it sound like a better system than it is, IMO.

If you want a QUALITY two ply system, you can install a smooth mod bit APP system, fully welded, flashings and all, the install another granulated system, fully welded to the first.

 

[AaronB.]

BTW, are you telling me that the 4x12/T&G is sagging? What is causing the ponding?

 

[AaronB.]

Interior drains?

I do not think it was his intention to screw you. There was no noticable water previously, and no reason to bid for it?

If anything, why not blame the original framer for not providing sufficient slope also?