[on_the_level]

Majority of your rim board is 1-7/8" for TGI/JSI. All engineering provided by manufacturers states that lags are acceptable with a modified fastener schedule assuming the floor joists run parallel to the deck joists, but I still have a hard time believing that laging and/or bolting into "osb" holds. How do you all feel about attaching to an engineered rim joist when the joists run perpendicular to the deck joists?

 

[Winchester]

Sometimes Construstion ,like the Military, has only one Rule.
Dont get Caught.
J.

I thought it was don't ask don't tell :laughing:

 

[Rob1954]

I've also seen a lot of deck ledgers attached to brick veneer with expansion bolts. Although it's frequently done, that doesn't make it correct. Thru-bolting isn't acceptable either.

If you do it that way and your customer were to dispute the attachment method, his attorney will have no trouble finding information that it's not acceptable.

This link has some good information on this subject, and specifically prohibits ledger attachment to brick veneer. Some of the more sophisticated local codes have adopted this document or reference it.

http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf

 

[Tinstaafl]

How about a little time-out where we pretend to use some common sense mixed with code? I've actually met an inspector or two who do that.

The ledger board has two jobs to accomplish: (A) holding one edge of the deck up, and (B) ensuring that it can't move away from the house.

(A) is a no-brainer. If you can stack bricks 3-4 stories high without the weight of the upper ones crushing the lower ones, the weight of the deck, even full of dancing gerbils, ain't gonna bring it down.

(B) is slightly more complex. If you're just lagged into the band board, and all 10,000 gerbils race toward the outer edge of the deck and slam on the brakes simultaneously, there's actually a tiny conceivable chance they could rip all of the joist end nails loose and send it tottering off its legs. Enter the Simpson DTT2. With a few of those in place, you'd need some serious iron to yank that deck away from the house.

 

[Tom M]

I think bolting to the rim joist through the brick will satisfy the pull. And I know DDT deck tension ties are supposed to prevent pull on the rim board but give me a break. The older homes had diagonal flooring boards nailed into that rim and the new sub floors have glued sheathing so DDT are just overkill. In either case they tie back into the house. Good Intention but overkill.

I would think a deck would rock like a table and the brick could be weakened by the inward forces on a hollow cavity.

 

[Tinstaafl]

The older homes had diagonal flooring boards nailed into that rim and the new sub floors have glued sheathing so DDT are just overkill. In either case they tie back into the house. Good Intention but overkill.

I would think a deck would rock like a table and the brick could be weakened by the inward forces on a hollow cavity.

I agree that DTT2's are overkill most of the time, but they're code now. It is what it is.

Believe it or not, a properly built brick wall is expected to flex a certain amount, and as long as the proper mortar was used, no harm done. But the same ties that keep it from falling outward also resist inward movement. :thumbsup:

 

[killerdecks]

i have yet to find any one with a finished basement willing to pay the price of the drywall repair, ect. needed to be done when using these fine Simpson brackets. Most walkouts around here have finished basements with drywall ceilings.
There is also the issue of water runing down the, through brick fastening device: bolts, rods whatever; and rotting out the bond. Bricks leak, its the reason for weep holes at the bottom. No amount of flashing will stop the water penetration through the brick.
steve scholl

 

[Tom M]

Brick is going to repel liquid water,but it will absorb it and if the sun comes out on that side of the house it will drive the vapor inward as moisture and collect again before weeping down a wall. So alot has to happen for a 1/2" bolt to get real wet.

I have trouble seeing the corragated metal brick tie resist inward pressure.

Im in the camp that says its possible with little consequence but wouldnt do it because there are to many negatives.



Just

 

[Tinstaafl]

You're right, Steve; it's definitely an invasive procedure. Fortunately, in this area most finished basements, even walkouts, have suspended ceilings.

So do you just take a pass on jobs like that, when for one reason or another you can't put posts next to the foundation?

 

[The Coastal Craftsman]

Well I spoke to the inspector for this area. Found out that they changed the code but if it was done correctly and deck attached to the rim joist then inspector could allow it. Also found out the same thing about the hand rails. Code says no handrail wider than 6ft but again the inspector said that as long as it strong and does not flex to much then it can be as long as ya like. Beam posts are also still allowed below grade. Which I like because this firms up the free standing deck much more than being bolted to a concrete pier.

 

[bbgcarpentry]

So R we saying that nobody here is using expandings bolts with some lags into the rim aswell,you all open up drywall or do freestanding?..

I think the real issuer is are the bolts and weight of the deck going to crush the brick veneer.

 

[BreyerConstruct]

Some things just aren't worth the risk.
Our standard practice is to engineer the deck as a free standing structure, or extend the support back to the house wall, with the brick removed.
As a professional you can't risk the risk of attaching to a loose facade. It's not just the sheer issue of support, but the pull-out risk as well, brick just doesn't have it.

-Matt

 

[killerdecks]

You're right, Steve; it's definitely an invasive procedure. Fortunately, in this area most finished basements, even walkouts, have suspended ceilings.

So do you just take a pass on jobs like that, when for one reason or another you can't put posts next to the foundation?

I take a pass on no job, and post are usually put 2 feet from the house and tacked into the brick with lag shields and screws for lateral support. Around here we are allowed a 2' front and back cantilever with the floor joist, unless there is a screeend room on the structure.
Regardless of what area a guy is in the code is written for every where and to tackle all issues. Nowhere does it state the age of the brick. I would never support a structure from the brick on anything in Detroit, as some of the brick; which is siding; and not structural is getting to be in the 60 + year age and in noway will support anything. Let alone a deck. maybe no one has seen this site: http://www.deckfailure.com/Failures.html
steve scholl

 

[Tom M]

If you go free standing then cross brace the thing. Once again posts 2 feet out with lags to the veneer is exactly what you dont do anywhere. You will pull the veneer off.

If you post that close to the house the posts need to get as deep as the house footing.

 

[The Coastal Craftsman]

If you go free standing then cross brace the thing. Once again posts 2 feet out with lags to the veneer is exactly what you dont do anywhere. You will pull the veneer off.

If you post that close to the house the posts need to get as deep as the house footing.

Noticed that here that if I'm within 5ft of house you have to be as deep as house footing.

 

[The Coastal Craftsman]

I take a pass on no job, and post are usually put 2 feet from the house and tacked into the brick with lag shields and screws for lateral support. Around here we are allowed a 2' front and back cantilever with the floor joist, unless there is a screeend room on the structure.
Regardless of what area a guy is in the code is written for every where and to tackle all issues. Nowhere does it state the age of the brick. I would never support a structure from the brick on anything in Detroit, as some of the brick; which is siding; and not structural is getting to be in the 60 + year age and in noway will support anything. Let alone a deck. maybe no one has seen this site: http://www.deckfailure.com/Failures.html
steve scholl

We are allowed 3ft over hang here. I have come across 5 different code books in the same state so far and each one has had different versions of the code. Some make life easy but some don't.

 

[Greg]

We have run into this several times and it can be a little confusing even for some bulding depts. [I typically have 10 to 15 different building depts. in the metro area to try to keep straight throughout the year] For example, one fine building dept. here requires footings along the house wall at 2ft out even though the 'book' says any footing within 5 ft of foundation needs to be same depth as foundation.

I think that different circumstances like project location, house condition, building dept. guidlines and etc. can effect the best way to approach things but here are a couple of ideas for you:

Something we have done in the past, which may or may not work in your case, would be to drop down to the foundation and bolt a ledger into that and then just post up to the other ledger/flush beam on the outside of the brick. An engineer detail and stamp is a good idea.

Another thing we have found that works well, is to have our engineer spec it out for bolting through the veneer and into the rim. Our engineer feels good about this method all day without DTT2's. Take the drawing and stamped letter to the building dept and you should be home free. We get this done for 3 or 4 hundered bucks max and that usually includes a site visit from the engineer to inspect and discuss all of the available options.

 

[killerdecks]

we dig all the post 12" diameter x 48" deep and bury the post in the ground, lots of lateral stability.
steve scholl

 

[The Coastal Craftsman]

we dig all the post 12" diameter x 48" deep and bury the post in the ground, lots of lateral stability.
steve scholl

That's one thing the inspector said were very important were the post holes. Ours are double that diameter and depth dependent on footing depth. Do you do the same size dia hole no matter of beam Span or joist span?

We can't use 12" dia footings for even a 5x5 deck. 12" seems pretty small for a deck to sit on.

 

[killerdecks]

6' joist span 6' beam span lots of posts, no deflection from over spanned joist etc.,
steve scholl