Both the 'traditional" method and the thin-bed method work great when done when correctly.(I refuse to call it the Kerdi method since its not THIER method,they didnt invent it)
To me as a mfg. of both types of membranes I would say that the elevation differance of the two is the biggest reason for one over the other.The traditional (or full mortar bed) method ends up being approx. 1 1/2" thicker since it requires a mortar bed over the membrane.We have lots of people do Chloraloy (traditional) on floor and Noblesal TS on walls.
In the case of Noble Co. both have a life time warranty.

 

Is there any particular reason you are not consulting with your tile sub on this? Why would advice from a bunch of strangers be the thing that proves to you which construction method is better if you haven't heard anything that has influenced you yet?

I think the newer methods of waterproofing the EXTERIOR of the substrate(the part you see) is logically safer as you aren't driving a ton of nails/screws through the water barrier and you aren't saturating the substrate. Which method you use is a matter of supply and preference. I personally have been using sheet membranes but am looking forward to using a liquid membrane.

There are a lot of threads on here that cover the different products.

 

Is there any particular reason you are not consulting with your tile sub on this?

He's in new hampshire, so there's only about 1000 people around him and 800 of those are socialists, lol.

But yeah, the local tile guys should be called in and yakked with. It's wise for him to ask around though, because as e3 alluded to, there's a lot of marketing BS out there.

Besides, I have no idea what a "custom tile shower installation" is anyway.

 

OF COURSE I have asked my tile subs hence the comment about some telling me kerdi is the only way to go and one telling me traditional is the only way to go. Most guys are going to just preach what they know. I have torn out both that were leaky rotten messes.

If getting opinions and advice of a large unbiased audience isn't the point of these forums, please tell me what is. Maybe I should start another which CMS or compressor thread or maybe a festool vs makita.

 

We make both types,i have done both,answered questions on both, tested both,Ect for years.if I were doing my own shower,i would use a traditional full mortar bed on floor and TS on walls..one reason , it is possible to re-do the floor tile with out tearing out the pan

 

Nice, good point EE3, no one has managed to mention that. That is the type of thing I am looking for. Awesome.

What about walls? What would you use in your own home that you plan to live in forever?

(sorry, just realized that you said you would use TS on walls.)

 

Mark,
E3 knows more than any of us will about tile stuff, so heed his leads.
But for me, you didn't give me anything to work off of. A lot of times, "custom" means not what came with the unit.

Is this residential? What type? Where in the unit? Occupied?
What do the owners envision? You're a GC, so I assume they've talked to you about it. Is this a full remod? Just a shower? What's it tied into?
ADA considerations?

Sorry mark, but your general, vague question came off not very well to me. Sometimes when I am working, people come up to me and after polite yakking, ask what they should use in their bathroom or how much would it cost to tile their shower, or.... I just tell them to call the local tile company in the phone book.

 

I have to agree with CO. Best for your clients-how? Each system has +/- and costs. Most GC's want "the best" until they figure the costs aren't fitting the project budget. So what market are you building for? entry level,mid-level,high end?

Is installation time important? Some products are quicker but cost more.Some products are more labor intensive than others. You pay the installer more or you pay the material supplier more.

Regarding re-tiling a shower floor. I've never change just shower walls and left the floor. The whole look gets changed.I don't think that is a strong argument for using a traditional base.

 

I use Kerdi but that Wedi system keeps staring at me at the tile shop.

 

Ok some details and clarifications. Some of which were in my original post. Sorry if it seemed vague.

I have spoken to tile subs. It seems everyone pushes their way without any real supporting evidence. It is just the way they want to do it. Fine, but I want to know what is best. Best to me means: longest lasting, fewest problems, highest quality IE: Mercedes not Kia, But also not Bentley.

This is a residence. Occupied. Master bathroom shower. No ADA. Plenty of other bathrooms to use. Time is not a major factor, within reason. Cost is also not the primary factor, within reason. I don't have an unlimited budget this is the real world. This is a nice house in an upscale neighborhood.

Here is the real question..... What method would you use to build a nice shower in a house you plan to live in forever and why? The why is the most important part.

Thanks for the help so far.

 

Fine, but I want to know what is best. Best to me means: longest lasting, fewest problems, highest quality

Full mudjob, and no wood/foam for curbs under any mud. It will outlast your house.

Here is the real question..... What method would you use to build a nice shower in a house you plan to live in forever and why? The why is the most important part.

Seems like a question whose answer will be used in marketing.

 

I've done about 50 wedi showers in the last few years, and have had great success. It's probably the fastest system.....but definitely not the cheapest. I really love the Kerdi drains.....and am now probably switching to that for the next 6 months. I think I can save about $200 -$300 per shower. But does take an extra couple hours

Not sure if its the brainwashing not wearing off yet from the schluter seminar. But I'm thinking that would outlast the wedi, just because there's a membrane sealing the corners and not a sealant

 

My tile guy used a Kerdi drain on the last tile shower we did. I thought it was pretty slick.

What really constitutes a traditional shower install? I tend to embrace "new" technologies so the Kerdi-type system (sorry if it should be called something else) for walls and floors appeals to me, could be all the marketing they do...., but I am not at all opposed to learning something especially if there are real benefits to my clients.

 

My tile guy used a Kerdi drain on the last tile shower we did. I thought it was pretty slick.

Why?

 

I've done about 50 wedi showers in the last few years, and have had great success. It's probably the fastest system.....but definitely not the cheapest. I really love the Kerdi drains.....and am now probably switching to that for the next 6 months. I think I can save about $200 -$300 per shower. But does take an extra couple hours

Not sure if its the brainwashing not wearing off yet from the schluter seminar. But I'm thinking that would outlast the wedi, just because there's a membrane sealing the corners and not a sealant

Wedi also sells a membrane if you want on inside corners . But they say you don't need it .

 

Seems like a question whose answer will be used in marketing.[/QUOTE]

Huh?

 

[]Seems like a question whose answer will be used in marketing.]
Huh?

You went from "what's the best?" to "here's the real question..."
Do you want to know what is the best, or what I would use in my own house? And in what bathroom?

FWIW, I usually have enough leftovers that whatever I make for myself, it's from leftovers from various jobs. Sometimes when I'm on a job and need something, I usually have it on hand somewhere or can bring it from home the next day. Wow, talk about sometimes mixing vendors and their different products.....

But they're all the best.

 

Sounds good. I'm not familiar with them as I've never used one. Someday, but so far, not a use for one yet.

Marketing is all about being general, being a brand that sells something vague, like "hope" and "change". I'm sure each type of substrate will say they are the "best" because, I mean, how can you contest that? How is "best" measured? Quality is another one. Sheetrock with glue in showers must have been quality and the best because millions of those have lasted problem free for longer than most warranties issued these days.
So sheetrock could be considered a quality product too as millions of ones were out there and no callbacks for 20-30 years.

Quality of substrate is a tricky thing to measure I guess. You seem to be looking for a rationale for some prefab package.

 

Thanks Scott.

I will use what I am most comfortable with, I am just trying to get a little education, to make my decision.

What, in your opinion, is the advantage to the floor system you use over say a preformed foam pan? This is the type of discussion I am looking to have. Pros and Cons, so I can decide what I feel is best.

Thanks everyone for weighing in.

BTW. Maybe my revised question should have been: What would you use on your own home that you plan to live in forever IF time and cost weren't significant factors. HA ha. :laughing:

I know what you mean about using leftovers, I save more stuff than I care to think about.

 

Maybe my revised question should have been: What would you use on your own home that you plan to live in forever IF time and cost weren't significant factors.

Heck, that's an easy one--I'd fly in my bud from CA and have him build me a full mud one while I watch, drinking beer, throwing things at him.

In one building, I used red, green, and blue waterproofing, both red and green on one floor in one room. I like the black stuff and the white stuff, though not the smell so much. I need to get more flavors so I can come up with some great designs going.

 

Mark,

It comes down to cost vs. benefit and as a GC that is what's most important to you... the reason a lot of guys embrace kerdi/wedi/noble is it works as a system, is time-tested and you can be installing tile the next day after water test/inspections... With mud, you lose a week between the pre-slope, the membrane, the water test, the inspection, the mud base, and THEN you get to tile... the trade-off with the systems is that they cost between $400-$600 for the system... so as a contractor or GC, this directly impacts how many jobs you can perform in a year...

Both ways of doing it are fine... Last bathroom job we did was a hybrid... mud on the floor, and hydroban on the floor as liner and walls... hadn't used hydroban as a liner yet, but both the manufacturer and the inspectors said it was all good... something to consider, the systems come with a warranty from the manufacturer... mud is all you... In our case, we ARE the warranty, but if you are one of those guys who only offer a 1-year warranty on tile, the manufacturer warranty is a bonus for the customer...

Been doing bathrooms for decades, and have seen pretty much all the methods, although not all manufacturers... I am interested in trying Wedi next... but this was a transition for me, because we always did mud... I remember when green-board was used in showers and the concept of water-proofing was caulk in the corners... :laughing:

That said, if we were a full-time bathroom company there would be no question which we would do... mud simply takes longer so you can't fit as many jobs in a year, which costs YOU money...

But being that we rarely do only one project at a time in a home, we make it all work schedule wise...

Best of luck... 8^)

 

Wedi system is faster to rough in. A lot faster. Should be considered as part of the discussion.

 

WEDI has a lot of advantages. Lighter material means you can carry more which means less trips back and forth. It can be scratched without causing a leak. No build up in the corners. Makes niches a breeze. It's not gypsum based.It's faster to install so you get to start the next job sooner. Those extra days add up to more jobs that year.

I haven't used the pre-made bases yet. But I have used the pre-made curbs.

 

from my experience I prefer mud walls over wedi or backerboard walls. I feel it provides a superior product with flatter walls and makes installing tile less complicated. It does take more time for the install but I believe in this weird business strategy of "quality over quantity". I embrace new technology when it works and wedi / backerboard work very well. I just pride myself on perfectly FLAT walls.

In past years I find it to be more stable surface to mount grab bars for the elderly. Backerboar/wedi does flex more even when the wall is fully installed with tile.

Reading from other post in this forum I have found that HOT MOP is mostly a So. Cal. thing. Hot Mop with deck mud is the only method I use for a shower pan.

 

from my experience I prefer mud walls over wedi or backerboard walls. I feel it provides a superior product with flatter walls and makes installing tile less complicated.

Reading from other post in this forum I have found that HOT MOP is mostly a So. Cal. thing. Hot Mop with deck mud is the only method I use for a shower pan.

Flatter walls that are also PLUMB.
If a tile man builds his own pre-slope, has his pan hot mopped, knows how to install proper lathe and float walls, I'd say he can buld a quality shower that will last 50 years.

 

What are your guys thoughts mixing brands? I like wedi board, the noble pro base and Kerdi band for sealing the base to walls and then the wedi caulk for everything else


Could this even be allowed!!!

Just used the Kerdi board and shower pan kit. Didn't really like either one. The membrane for a pan just seems too thin

 

You've probably seen me harp on using a combination of Wedi / Denshield, but it really does work, is cost effective and is easy to install. Denshield is even easier to install than sheetrock, and Wedi is by far the simplest shower system (and also on the top-tier as far as waterproofing goes) to install. Wedi is also the most expensive, at $30 for a 5'x3'x1/2" sheet, that can add up. I use Wedi for the first foot above the shower, which is the limit to how far Wedi wants you to install the lowest screw, and then I transition to Denshield, which runs about $12 for a 5'x4'x1/2" sheet for the remainder of the shower. Using the Wedi sealant, I cover all of my seams and screwheads. I use Wedi for my niches, as the foam edge make for easier waterproofing than the powdery gypsum edge of Denshield.

Here are some photos of a few projects using this method.

 

I understand the reasons to mix materials but can't see using WEDI caulk as seam sealer. How would it stick along a powdery edge?

 

Good question!

That's why I use Wedi where outside edges will be exposed, like on niches. Before, it was a pain, because I'd have to clean the powder with a damp sponge and let it dry, then I'd have to work my Wedi glue all the way around and inspect for pinholes, basically treating it like a membrane system like hydroban or aquadefense. Often, that was a two-step process because there would be some small areas that weren't sufficiently sealted. Now I just go from the surface of the denshield to the waterproof edge of the Wedi. With a seam of Denshield, simply going from surface to surface is sufficient according to their own spec, and any waterproof sealant is fine, such as silicone.

 

I used that combination recently for a tub wall with niche. I think a quick seal of the denshield edges and cuts with some AD might make a better seam. It would soak into the gyp core, IMO. Then you could apply the wedi sealant over the seam if you wanted.

 

FWIW, we would thinset the bottom 1/3 of shower/tub when I worked at a shop. Everything above was mastic. The lower part of the shower is the last to dry out so it made sense. However, I don't do it that way for myself. Now, I waterproof the whole thing and set with thinset.

 

I always wonder how flexible the Wedi sealed joints are. If there is some movement will that joint crack? I assume not. I feel more comfortable with the kerdi corners and joints.

 

Very flexible. It dries to a consistency similar to tire rubber, which allows for movement.

 

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