btw - same problem with the base cabinets. They need to be hung from a supporting rod on the wall - and there. Is only plaster at the point where they would be hung as well. And they will be supporting a, albeit tiny, quartz countertop.

 

Lastly i know this isn't the ideal forum area for this question - but none of the others directly related either. If there's a better place to repost - perhaps carpentry -let me know. And thanks.

 

Maybe use epoxy to anchor threaded rod. As I recall those cabinets hang on a track that is attached to the wall.

 

They do - I'm afraid I may not be catching your drift though you mean get a length of threaded rod, cut into smaller pieces, then drill holes on the plaster, put in the rod with epoxy, let it set and hang it off of that? Would that be a stronger solution than just using heavy duty toggles you think? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

Anchors, screws and finish washers. Some combo either through the cabinet backs or with brackets inside the cabinet to something solid.

 

The problem is the "something solid" part of the equation. Its all plaster. It all in pretty good shape, but its still all plaster. Can i safely hang kitchen cabinets with just anchors or mollys or even toggles just on plaster with a chicken wire lath?

 

You could not see that when bidding. It's an extra. Take plaster off that one wall. That is the onlyway to do it right.

I have worked on many plaster homes, generally the lath is fastened to something that is vertical. Are you going deep enough in the wall?

 

You could not see that when bidding. It's an extra. Take plaster off that one wall. That is the onlyway to do it right.

I have worked on many plaster homes, generally the lath is fastened to something that is vertical. Are you going dee enough in the wall?

I spoke to the super in the building to confirm my suspicions and hes assured me there is no support structure - its just heavy duty chicken wire and plaster - about six inches behind that, maybe four, is concrete.

In terms of taking plaster off, do you mean that one section only, and then replaster and set in a supporting horizontal beam like the ones below it? Or literally tear down the wall and build a more modern one?

 

Hillman strap toggles, snap-toggles, etc. Allows removing/repositioning the anchor without losing the toggle. Makes a big hole, inaccurate (at the fine measurements a cabinet install needs. Since Ikea using a track system, likely will work.

On antique homes with bloom walls and plaster for custom cabinets we:

- Carefully marked EXACT location of all wall cabs.
- Attached 3/4" ply to wall using combination of toggles and anchors (all I had, "back in the day").
- Ply was undersized just enough to let end panels cover.
- Once ply is mounted, now mount cabs to ply, scribing to wall as needed.

This gives you flexibility over placing the ply and anchors, and precision on placing the boxes.

In your situation: On traditional big box store production boxes, you could get "skins" to place over the exposed cabinet sides to accomplish the same, or cove or 1/4 round molding.

On Ikea - I have no clue what they offer for skins, etc.

 

This was along the lines of what i was considering - taking the ply, screwing that into the wood thats already laid into the wall horizontally - as well as toggles where it doesnt have wood - and then attaching the cabinets to the ply. You've done this on plaster alone? Have you found it to be sturdyd enough in that case?

 

Is this a one story building?

 

Nope 7 stories.

 

Draw one of these
http://www.google.com/search?q="fre...en&prmd=ivnsbp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=d_GTVd_VF4HNsQXRmYPICw&ved=0CAUQ_AU

If I understand the situation, the cabinet weight exerts a downward force parallel to the wall, a shear force. There is hardly any pullout force at right angles to the wall unless you put a ledger plate under the cabinet.

Idk how old plaster will react.

So, to resist this large concentrated force, cover some or all of the wall with 3/4" thk wood fastened in many places (which spreads the force) against the plaster, then anchor the cabinet to the wood.
The cabinet weight is resisted by the many fasteners and the wood resting on the floor.

Then, test your work by loading the cabinets. Do just one, first.



On second thought, hang a 1"x2"x8' ledger plate from the ceiling joists with very long lag screws and don't bother with the wall. The pullout force for these screws is on the Web.
You'll need a second plate on the bottom as a spacer.

 

Is it a "Rod" or suspension rail that the Cabinets hang on?

Highly Doubt it is 'Chicken Wire' rather a heavy gauge metal lath hung/tied to light framing resembling unistrut or even rod. Those light framing members typically run around 36"-42" centers. Often they run both vertically and horizontally.

That wall construction can be amazingly strong. Most don't understand until you try to demo it, cut patches in it ect. If your wall is solid and does not flex when you push on it it's likely in good shape.

That being the case ... run toggle bolts 8-12" on center through the suspension rails. Snug but not so tight you crack the plaster. The toggle against the metal lath won't pull through. There may be a little drop/sag, which is normal, if it's done properly. Part of working with plaster walls like that.

Sounds like your probably right at the edge of your comfort zone doing this work. Talk to the super. Seriously look for a "Local" carpenter/remodeler who's hung cabinetry on walls like this. Ask -pay for some additional advice.

 

I've hung cabinets (including Ikea's) on walls like that many times.
(not exactly your "frameless" wall, but lots of hollow plaster, plaster over gyp block...etc, where hitting framing members wasn't an option at times)

I think the wall is probably stronger than you give it credit for.

If you've ever demoed one.....you'd feel better about them.
Also, almost the entire rail would have to release from the wall for collapse, not just one fastening point or two...... highly doubtful...... IMO.
The metal lathe will not release or fail via a 4" hole (toggle diameter), nor will it pull away in a sheet from it's attachment at the ceiling or floor.

IMO, you can avoid skinning the entire wall in ply, and the resulting issues with trying to fill the gaps at the ends of the runs.
(Ikea doesn't allow much to do this "correctly", but either way, I would buy an extra wall filler strip to deal with the gaps you will undoubtedly have)

I would most likely (depending on my assessment of the plaster) just fasten the hanging rail with multiple heavy duty toggles and glue the entire rail before install.

If I felt the least bit concerned....I would just install a lower hanging rail to beef up the system.
You just have to get extra rail, clips and covers (readily available) and make the appropriate cutouts in the back panel.

Ikea hanging rails no longer allow for wavy walls, and must be shimmed to dead flat and level before you can hang.
At least that is what I had to do last week after realizing they had changed their system a bit. I liked the older ones better.

 

Gasdark:

You want to do something like this. Plywood let into the plaster wall attached to framing:

 

This is something I should have done a long time ago if I wanted to believe that I exercise Due Diligence. It's a tedious PITA but you only have to do it once.

People want to estimate jobs by knowing sq. ft., linear ft., number of receptacles, HO's house value gotten from Zillow, ZIPCode of the house and use CityData to find median income, etc.
The assumption is that there is a good correlation between what they measure and what they should charge for the job.

The method below should have a very good correlation between what you measure and how close you are to the cabinet falling off the wall. All you need to know is the weight of a cabinet full of dishes & the dims of the cab.
From there you can figure fastener strength, number of fasteners, safety factor (Hillman Hardware says 4), etc.

Cabinet maker catalogs give dims but not weights so if you weigh and measure a chunk of the dense material they make these cabs from you can figure the weight of any empty cab.

A sample of one cab with a typical load of dishes gives you a lot of info, but more samples is better.

So, for more than one cabinet in your kitchen, weigh yourself before and after picking up a stack of plates, cups, saucers & containers.
Let's say it's 50 lbs.
Then figure cabinet weight and add to the 50, let's say it comes to 90 lbs.
Then measure cabinet volume, let's say 3 cu ft.

So for any cabinet volume you can figure typical dishes + cab weight.
From above, 3 cu ft. gives you 90 lbs so you've got 30 lbs per cu. ft., +/- a tolerance.
The ratios from the other cabs gives you tolerance.

With these values and a calculator you can know the full weight of almost any cab. with just a tape measure.

 

Im going to meet up with the super and see which route makes sense based on history with the wall. Ill update on final decision when its made.

Thank you all - this has been very helpful.

 

It is probably that black metal lath the is very difficult to remove and tears your hands to pieces.

 

Plenty of good advice from others. The wall's probably strong enough with toggles alone, but you can also poke a few holes and fish some back boards or pieces of superstrut into the wall, to sandwich the wall between the rail and the backers.

 

Update -spoke to the super - the walls have no history of failure and the construction is very strong. The pleats set in the plaster have been used to hang cabinets on by themselves with success. So, upper cabinets have 3/4 inch ply screwed into two pleats with cabinets screws - and support bar into the ply and plaster.

all cabinets attached to the support bar.

as for bottom cabinets, uper has successfully hung base cabs witj just two toggle into the plaster, its that strong. to be sure i secured the support bar with five 200+ pounds toggles and then hung base cabs from the support. Based on supers extensive experience with the walls i think this should be a sufficient solution.

Thanks for your help.