[tipitop]

Their talking about unionizing AMAZON you could have a scenario where a box handler will have benefits, time paid off and low responsibility monkey work and a decent check.

Compare this to a guy paying for his own equipment, insured out the azz, managing own taxes, no discount healthcare, responsible for everything they touch a couple of years after a day they touch something, connected to thousands of dollars of product in order to work all for not a single day paid off and no security.......
In fact you could be profitable and good half the month or year and then something falls apart with weather or product and it averages into you only end up meeting the overhead.

Hard truth Not good for the trades

This big time. Problem with trades is it is low profit activity. Posted back then f farma like Pfizer make 700K of revenue per employee and 30% profit of it.
It shine in my head after 30 years of deep thinking that I should at minimum earn from financial side of construction (realtor, mortgage agent, home inspection) same money like from technical side or I'm f up.
Last sentence in comment that I quoted. Do not forget guys that has bad back and come to company only to sue it after one month of work.

 

[Leo G]

If the younguns don't go into the trade us old guys will be making a lot more change because you'll have to beg us to do your job. Which is why they want the illegals to come and do it for $10/hr

 

[tipitop]

^^^ Hence is best be in trades that need licensing. Talked with electrician other day. He said he is at 750$/day.

 

[Deckhead]

I would be extremely proud to have my daughters marry trades people. I'd probably start a lot more relaxed with them then I would anyone going to school. While my friends were partying in school I was sweating last nights drinking session out at 6 am. My daughters are not a commodity that can be bought and sold, I want the best for them and for them to have someone who treats them like they deserve, someone who will be there through thick and thin. I can't think of a better thing to prepare a young man for the world like the trades do, probably the military but there ain't nothing in school that teaches like hard knocks.

If you want to get ahead in the trades here, its not real difficult. If you fish in the right ponds, those doctors and lawyers will envy what you get to do with your family and still provide a good life. I know on my deathbed I won't be wishing I made more money. Beyond making enough not to worry, I don't really know anyone who is happier because they have more. That mindset is a cancer that you can't escape from and will lead you to the poor house.

Furthermore desk jockeys do what, get to brag they got to sit for 30 years? Maybe they had a good, fun, stimulating job. The big things in their life still happened after work. Us, the entire ride is an adventure. Those 4 years my friends were in college I was learning how to be tougher than most, how to be responsible for my actions, manage money, and overall do the things they did and more. My wife's story from college to here is a couple out of control Christmas parties. I get to tell her at times about things like the time a neighbor came over and was freaking out because her son was crazy and said he was going to kill her. That was quite the day. Or when I watched guys fall off a roof. Or when guys come to blows on commercial sites.

Reminds me of the Robert Frost poem...

"And I - I took the road less traveled by"

And I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[Leo G]

All these people who don't know how to do anything but work on computers better make a lot of money. Because most of them don't know how to unscrew a light bulb. They need all that money to pay other people to do simple things. I can't imagine being mechanically illiterate, but there are so many people like that and more being bred every day.

 

[Tom M]

You tube videos provide answers and demonstration to a lot otherwise uncapable desk jockies

Licensing for trades is like protected labor. Part of me says it's time the insurance companies demand better licensing for carpentry......the other part says it's impose to enforce and nothing will change other than more bold Diyers. Like that dumb Lead Paint Renovate Right. By the letter no one will ever higher you outside of a HUD program.

 

[Jaws]

Historically though, a good degree will almost always out earn a trade.

By good degree I mean STEM, or even law school, something that will almost always have demand.

The problem is, especially with my generation, we were told for years that you "need" a degree to be successful, which isn't true at all. You can do just fine working with your hands, but you have to know the guy that spent 8-10 years becoming a doctor is likely to make out a lot better over the course of his lifetime. That's basic supply and demand though.

I think kids are figuring this out now, after watching a couple decades of people owe 10's of thousands of dollars for a business management degree or other worthless piece of paper.

There's nothing wrong at all with hard physical work, but to deny that it leaves you broken more often than not is to be ignorant.

Like I said, if I was going to restart in the trades, I would go union right out of the gate and pad my retirement as much as possible. Work sucks, and I would like to be able to stop doing it some day and work on my own projects while not having to worry about money, but that's unlikely now as I didn't plan like I should have in my 20's.

Nah, I disagree. You comparing 12 years of college and 500k in college fees is absurd imo. 3% of the population can pr would go to be MD. Personally I wouldn't trade either, im good friends with a doctor in town, ophthalmologist. 12 years of college plus residency, was 35 before she started making money. Now she owns a surgery center but 7 million in debt for it. Yes her income is higher than mine but my shop and office are an asset paying me money at 37, not a stress or worry. While she was going 500k in debt for school I was digging ditches and sweeping slabs and working my way quickly up the ladder to a good salary, company truck, and insurance before contracting.

Its all relative on lifestyle too. She has more payments than my entire lifestyle cost me id bet, I dont have installment debt and hate payments. Guess who's more stressed? [emoji38]

Now back to reality - a journeyman plumber makes around 60k a year here unless they are on a service truck, those guys are on commission and my plumbers #1 service guy is six figures with a truck, free phone and health insurance. 2 kids, wife doesn't work. Chip, the 25 year old journeyman who does my rough ins and top outs is making a little more than average, and has zero student debt. Zero, he was paid to learn his trade. Now here in marble falls probably 80% of college grads including my AA/Purchasing manager arent making 60k. This isn't pulling numbers out of my ass these are EDC statistics.

There are lots of college folks killing it, for sure. But there is a national epidemic of ones who are drowning...

Like anything else if you choose to be an employee you'll never make it big unless you are 300k or more in education probably. You can make a damn good living but never be "rich" . Taking that further if you stay just a hand, a plumber installing pipe and never move up you'll remain in the average aggregate for pay. Still better than say, an administrator or teacher or whatever.

Now you want to control your destiny, lifestyle and income? You take the next step and become a contractor. That picture is the check box on our shop. Not one of the contractors coming to pick up their check or their wives coming to get the check on Friday am do I look out my office window and say man that guys life sucks. Nice trucks, nice lives. Some are doing better financially than others but all that I can think of are living how they want to live. My mason(s), one has 30 men and is probably a millionaire at 36. The other is 63 and has 3 men and is a happy guy who still likes laying rock from what I can tell. Both live well and more importantly how they chose to. I dont know many college employees I can think of who have that kind of freedom or control.

So yeah if you get off work and drink beer in your driveway everynifjt your not going far, or even if your going home and playing with kids and doing homework and spending all your time with family. All good but if you arent reading and progressing your staying where your at. Drunk or Mr.Dad

I would make a good living just wearing bags running a small crew. Im good at building, but I took it a step further like my younger mason and got good at not only trade work business. Then operations management. Then sales. Etc... just like anything else the more you got in the tool box the more you get pit of the tool box...

Headed to do some work this am, with 3 guys. Off the top of my head as a natural numbers guy I'd make $625 bucks today after my hands, their over head, GL, truck payment etc if I was working out of my home with those 3 guys. Chit ill take it.

My tool box is packed, I can make a lot more money in that plan room or make a damn good living with those bags and a small crew I could find and slash together and build houses, additions, retaining walls, driveways, clearing property, boat docks, pole barns, decks what ever. I made 100k in 18 working days wearing bags on 650 sq steel roof replacement on a plant once, pics on this forum.

My choice which it is. No ones is going to do it for me or make the decision for me. Same for us all.

I've been a member here 10 years and have seen lots of folks progress and lots stay where they are, some on purpose and are good with it, others its always someone or something holding them down.

Id be very ok with my college educated daughters marrying tradesman. Just because Kowboy is a wuss doesn't mean others aren't doing well at it. Now if its a dude drinking beer in his driveway everynight or just not real Industrious I imagine he might feel a boot in his ass and maybe find himself working with big John [emoji1787]

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[Jaws]

All these people who don't know how to do anything but work on computers better make a lot of money. Because most of them don't know how to unscrew a light bulb. They need all that money to pay other people to do simple things. I can't imagine being mechanically illiterate, but there are so many people like that and more being bred every day.

No chit. My house had 200k in equity and a loe payment when I finished building it. Thsts not because I am good at business its because I know how to do things other people pay huge money for. My outdoor kitchen and camper shed I imagine I saved 17-20k on alone just this year

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[VinylHanger]

Overall, IMO neither of us should really be sneering at the other. As long as what you do pays the bills and doesn't keep you awake at night, it's all good.

You obviously haven't been on the internet very long. That's not how it works. 😁

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[Deckhead]

I'll take the freedom over more money any day. I get why guys want to get bigger, it's the next challenge and guys who are driven love the next challenge not necessarily for the money. For me personally the challenge was to make enough money to have maximum freedom. I did that and the next big thing I'm setting up is to try to find a way into these art galleries downtown and start selling whatever I want to build rather then someone else wants to.

Its a strange world to try to get into but the guys I know who do it, make a killing and travel all over the world making buttloads of money. Its a different kind of challenge but I enjoy it. Ultimately, I wanna find a way to get paid 40 hrs for 10 hrs of work, hah. Not sure I'll ever get to that point but the trades aren't going to die. I know some college kids who are starting to second guess their college choice and telling others they should go figure out a trade.

Lots of little niches to get into in the trades world, from the world of business and selling to the world of artistry and pinky out champagne meetings. Opportunity really is only hindered by the person running it. If you wanna be a doctor or engineer, school makes sense. If it's business, get out there and try to make your way in life. The trades provide that much opportunity. Lots of Indians out there with few chiefs, the trades provide a chance for the chief and not as much for the Indians, unless those employees want to work hard and make their own way someday as well. And some will just like to work with their hands. Nothing better than an honest days wages knowing you worked for it. Sitting as a desk jockey for a year I never felt fulfilled when I went home.

 

[Jaws]

You obviously haven't been on the internet very long. That's not how it works. [emoji16]

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True, and its sad. I have more respect for my mailman who is always happy and providing a needed service than a tech exec we just moved in whose a miserable and whiny.

The mailman is probably more relevant to society, and that's probably evident in what I just relayed

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[Leo G]

You tube videos provide answers and demonstration to a lot otherwise uncapable desk jockies

Licensing for trades is like protected labor. Part of me says it's time the insurance companies demand better licensing for carpentry......the other part says it's impose to enforce and nothing will change other than more bold Diyers. Like that dumb Lead Paint Renovate Right. By the letter no one will ever higher you outside of a HUD program.

The only thing that will do is make a new money cow for the states. They'll barley regulate it and they'll only go after guys who are trying to comply. The shlubs that don't get licensed are invisible to them unless they are reported. or they do a sting.

 

[Leo G]

Nah, I disagree. You comparing 12 years of college and 500k in college fees is absurd imo. 3% of the population can pr would go to be MD. Personally I wouldn't trade either, im good friends with a doctor in town, ophthalmologist. 12 years of college plus residency, was 35 before she started making money. Now she owns a surgery center but 7 million in debt for it. Yes her income is higher than mine but my shop and office are an asset paying me money at 37, not a stress or worry. While she was going 500k in debt for school I was digging ditches and sweeping slabs and working my way quickly up the ladder to a good salary, company truck, and insurance before contracting.

Its all relative on lifestyle too. She has more payments than my entire lifestyle cost me id bet, I dont have installment debt and hate payments. Guess who's more stressed? [emoji38]

Now back to reality - a journeyman plumber makes around 60k a year here unless they are on a service truck, those guys are on commission and my plumbers #1 service guy is six figures with a truck, free phone and health insurance. 2 kids, wife doesn't work. Chip, the 25 year old journeyman who does my rough ins and top outs is making a little more than average, and has zero student debt. Zero, he was paid to learn his trade. Now here in marble falls probably 80% of college grads including my AA/Purchasing manager arent making 60k. This isn't pulling numbers out of my ass these are EDC statistics.

There are lots of college folks killing it, for sure. But there is a national epidemic of ones who are drowning...

Like anything else if you choose to be an employee you'll never make it big unless you are 300k or more in education probably. You can make a damn good living but never be "rich" . Taking that further if you stay just a hand, a plumber installing pipe and never move up you'll remain in the average aggregate for pay. Still better than say, an administrator or teacher or whatever.

Now you want to control your destiny, lifestyle and income? You take the next step and become a contractor. That picture is the check box on our shop. Not one of the contractors coming to pick up their check or their wives coming to get the check on Friday am do I look out my office window and say man that guys life sucks. Nice trucks, nice lives. Some are doing better financially than others but all that I can think of are living how they want to live. My mason(s), one has 30 men and is probably a millionaire at 36. The other is 63 and has 3 men and is a happy guy who still likes laying rock from what I can tell. Both live well and more importantly how they chose to. I dont know many college employees I can think of who have that kind of freedom or control.

So yeah if you get off work and drink beer in your driveway everynifjt your not going far, or even if your going home and playing with kids and doing homework and spending all your time with family. All good but if you arent reading and progressing your staying where your at. Drunk or Mr.Dad

I would make a good living just wearing bags running a small crew. Im good at building, but I took it a step further like my younger mason and got good at not only trade work business. Then operations management. Then sales. Etc... just like anything else the more you got in the tool box the more you get pit of the tool box...

Headed to do some work this am, with 3 guys. Off the top of my head as a natural numbers guy I'd make $625 bucks today after my hands, their over head, GL, truck payment etc if I was working out of my home with those 3 guys. Chit ill take it.

My tool box is packed, I can make a lot more money in that plan room or make a damn good living with those bags and a small crew I could find and slash together and build houses, additions, retaining walls, driveways, clearing property, boat docks, pole barns, decks what ever. I made 100k in 18 working days wearing bags on 650 sq steel roof replacement on a plant once, pics on this forum.

My choice which it is. No ones is going to do it for me or make the decision for me. Same for us all.

I've been a member here 10 years and have seen lots of folks progress and lots stay where they are, some on purpose and are good with it, others its always someone or something holding them down.

Id be very ok with my college educated daughters marrying tradesman. Just because Kowboy is a wuss doesn't mean others aren't doing well at it. Now if its a dude drinking beer in his driveway everynight or just not real Industrious I imagine he might feel a boot in his ass and maybe find himself working with big John [emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

A lot of people don't see that. Ohhh, you're making 150K/yr, but in debt so far you'll have to work 30 years just to see light at the end of the tunnel if you want a nice house and car too.

 

[Leo G]

I'll take the freedom over more money any day. I get why guys want to get bigger, it's the next challenge and guys who are driven love the next challenge not necessarily for the money. For me personally the challenge was to make enough money to have maximum freedom. I did that and the next big thing I'm setting up is to try to find a way into these art galleries downtown and start selling whatever I want to build rather then someone else wants to.

Its a strange world to try to get into but the guys I know who do it, make a killing and travel all over the world making buttloads of money. Its a different kind of challenge but I enjoy it. Ultimately, I wanna find a way to get paid 40 hrs for 10 hrs of work, hah. Not sure I'll ever get to that point but the trades aren't going to die. I know some college kids who are starting to second guess their college choice and telling others they should go figure out a trade.

Lots of little niches to get into in the trades world, from the world of business and selling to the world of artistry and pinky out champagne meetings. Opportunity really is only hindered by the person running it. If you wanna be a doctor or engineer, school makes sense. If it's business, get out there and try to make your way in life. The trades provide that much opportunity. Lots of Indians out there with few chiefs, the trades provide a chance for the chief and not as much for the Indians, unless those employees want to work hard and make their own way someday as well. And some will just like to work with their hands. Nothing better than an honest days wages knowing you worked for it. Sitting as a desk jockey for a year I never felt fulfilled when I went home.

There's a lot of people who don't understand that. Making money isn't what life is all about. It's nice, but time is usually nicer. You still have to make decent cash to have time off to do those things though.

 

[Tom M]

Some people want to eliminate that college debt with the stroke of a pen further alienating everyone that already paid or didn't choose that option but it's forced to pay.

these computers are becoming more self-sufficient what kind of jobs are we creating are we just marketing Chinese product and managing that? We just talked about Google their cookies and marketing algorithms doing the work for marketing companies

 

[Jaws]

A lot of people don't see that. Ohhh, you're making 150K/yr, but in debt so far you'll have to work 30 years just to see light at the end of the tunnel if you want a nice house and car too.

A tradesman can make a good living in jeans and boots vs having to wear nicer and nicer clothes, cars, clubs etc to keep up with the Jones and look the part. Cost a lot of money to be a lawyer if your not in a big firm..

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[Deckhead]

A tradesman can make a good living in jeans and boots vs having to wear nicer and nicer clothes, cars, clubs etc to keep up with the Jones and look the part. Cost a lot of money to be a lawyer if your not in a big firm..

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Hell, we can make a good living in flip flops and shorts.

 

[NYCB]

Nah, I disagree. You comparing 12 years of college and 500k in college fees is absurd imo. 3% of the population can pr would go to be MD. Personally I wouldn't trade either, im good friends with a doctor in town, ophthalmologist. 12 years of college plus residency, was 35 before she started making money. Now she owns a surgery center but 7 million in debt for it. Yes her income is higher than mine but my shop and office are an asset paying me money at 37, not a stress or worry. While she was going 500k in debt for school I was digging ditches and sweeping slabs and working my way quickly up the ladder to a good salary, company truck, and insurance before contracting.

Its all relative on lifestyle too. She has more payments than my entire lifestyle cost me id bet, I dont have installment debt and hate payments. Guess who's more stressed? [emoji38]

Now back to reality - a journeyman plumber makes around 60k a year here unless they are on a service truck, those guys are on commission and my plumbers #1 service guy is six figures with a truck, free phone and health insurance. 2 kids, wife doesn't work. Chip, the 25 year old journeyman who does my rough ins and top outs is making a little more than average, and has zero student debt. Zero, he was paid to learn his trade. Now here in marble falls probably 80% of college grads including my AA/Purchasing manager arent making 60k. This isn't pulling numbers out of my ass these are EDC statistics.

There are lots of college folks killing it, for sure. But there is a national epidemic of ones who are drowning...

Like anything else if you choose to be an employee you'll never make it big unless you are 300k or more in education probably. You can make a damn good living but never be "rich" . Taking that further if you stay just a hand, a plumber installing pipe and never move up you'll remain in the average aggregate for pay. Still better than say, an administrator or teacher or whatever.

Now you want to control your destiny, lifestyle and income? You take the next step and become a contractor. That picture is the check box on our shop. Not one of the contractors coming to pick up their check or their wives coming to get the check on Friday am do I look out my office window and say man that guys life sucks. Nice trucks, nice lives. Some are doing better financially than others but all that I can think of are living how they want to live. My mason(s), one has 30 men and is probably a millionaire at 36. The other is 63 and has 3 men and is a happy guy who still likes laying rock from what I can tell. Both live well and more importantly how they chose to. I dont know many college employees I can think of who have that kind of freedom or control.

So yeah if you get off work and drink beer in your driveway everynifjt your not going far, or even if your going home and playing with kids and doing homework and spending all your time with family. All good but if you arent reading and progressing your staying where your at. Drunk or Mr.Dad

I would make a good living just wearing bags running a small crew. Im good at building, but I took it a step further like my younger mason and got good at not only trade work business. Then operations management. Then sales. Etc... just like anything else the more you got in the tool box the more you get pit of the tool box...

Headed to do some work this am, with 3 guys. Off the top of my head as a natural numbers guy I'd make $625 bucks today after my hands, their over head, GL, truck payment etc if I was working out of my home with those 3 guys. Chit ill take it.

My tool box is packed, I can make a lot more money in that plan room or make a damn good living with those bags and a small crew I could find and slash together and build houses, additions, retaining walls, driveways, clearing property, boat docks, pole barns, decks what ever. I made 100k in 18 working days wearing bags on 650 sq steel roof replacement on a plant once, pics on this forum.

My choice which it is. No ones is going to do it for me or make the decision for me. Same for us all.

I've been a member here 10 years and have seen lots of folks progress and lots stay where they are, some on purpose and are good with it, others its always someone or something holding them down.

Id be very ok with my college educated daughters marrying tradesman. Just because Kowboy is a wuss doesn't mean others aren't doing well at it. Now if its a dude drinking beer in his driveway everynight or just not real Industrious I imagine he might feel a boot in his ass and maybe find himself working with big John [emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

You just said it. It takes a lot of drive, and not wanting to be an employee for life to really crush it in the trades.

An engineer working for an oil or defense company is going to destroy most tradesmen in lifetime earnings, so much so that the student debt will end up being negligible.

Not all doctors and engineers will become wealthy, but most tradesmen won't.

Just based on personal anecdotes, the guys here that go union, heavy highway, or other prevailing wage work do pretty well, and live comfortably for the hours they have to put in, and often have a good shot at retirement.

Hour for hour though they are very unlikely to match someone with a good degree in earning potential.

Of course the groups will overlap, but they are different. Even if you compare two that make the same money in a year, if you look at the effort involved the tradesman likely has a lot more time and discomfort wrapped up in making that money over the course of the year.

I would never bad mouth the trades, they are vital, and it's how I make a living, but we need to be realistic about expectations. If you want to kill it you either need to go union and max out your retirement, or start your own gig and work pretty much 24/7 for awhile to get it making you money.

If you want to kill it with a degree, pick a good one, get good grades, and then go to work pretty much anywhere and not have to worry about waking up at 5am to go get cold and wet, or trying to figure out which insurance and taxes to pay to stay in good standing with the state.

 

[Leo G]

Most tradesmen work for someone else and that makes it unlikely that you will be making a killing,.

 

[Fishindude]

Since all teachers are college degreed individuals, they feel they are somehow superior for having this education and have pushed the agenda that all kids should go to college and working with your hands and getting dirty is for "second class citizens". They have the ears and of attention of our kids for 12 years of their lives, so they can make those ideas sink in. Their message has pushed young adults away from the trades for several decades now and that is why we are seeing the labor shortages, aging construction workforce, etc.

It's really our own fault as contractors for not doing a better job combatting this. We need to get the pay up as high as possible and give all of our people good benefit packages including; paid vacations & holidays, health insurance, retirement programs, a safe & clean work environment, etc. We also need to do a better job promoting our businesses and trades to young people in our communities to develop the interest early. Some contractors understand this, are implementing these strategies and are doing a great job recruiting new young people. Until more get on board, it will be a problem.