I am wondering could you use a 4x4 as header for a window or door for 2x4 outside garage wall?
4x4 as a header?
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CJ21
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Andy.... why'd you say "no glue".... no advantage/unecessary????
Just old custom, I've always thrown some LN or PL in the ply???
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Statewide you have to meet 2009 codes (at minimum) & you are in a wind zone - so you should be using insulated headers - 1/2" thick foam & 2 2x's
You have worked hard trying to develop & establish your name, do it right & don't cheap out
There are better ways to save money on materials & still end up with a quality product, here are a few: http://blog.sls-construction.com/2012/common-sense-ove-framing
It will not hurt anything at all to glue them if you want.
I am just not convinced that glue does any good as the nails take all the shear forces between plys.
I just think it adds a bit of messy complication.
Andy.
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I'll bet you are dead right/correct.... many years ago I had a (AH) BI inspector that liked it (never called him on it)..... ever since then I got used to even making sure I had some squeze out so BI's could see it...
Best
Do you have to use glue?
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Yes, no, it depends... As some mentioned, some AHJ's may like to see it / way they were trained like me. Scipio makes some good points though a few might mention there is more than sheer load like lateral, etc... Personally as mentioned I was taught to do it that way so I still do it, especially as I think it helps make it more of a single & stronger unit especially when you are dealing with wood that maybe slightly wet / has some shrinking still to do
As for foam or going old style with drywall in the center - glue wont do anything, only when the two pieces of lumber are touching which is one reason why I place the foam on one side or the other. For example if there is a slight chance that an awning maybe installed I will place the foam towards the inside
As for foam or going old style with drywall in the center - glue wont do anything, only when the two pieces of lumber are touching which is one reason why I place the foam on one side or the other. For example if there is a slight chance that an awning maybe installed I will place the foam towards the inside
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This thread bugs me. Not saying anyone here, but I've had the same people say you can't use a 4x4 (or 2 2x4s) on a door use undesized 2x12s elsewhere.
Use your local code and look up the header tables. They are conservative.
Use your local code and look up the header tables. They are conservative.
Timberframers use 8x8's and bigger...they must be hacks for not using 2x8's and ply instead.
Seriously though, if code allows it, I don't see anything wrong with a properly sized solid header. IMO it is stronger than 2 boards nailed together.
Sometimes it's ok to think outside of the standard carpentry "box", there is more than one way to skin a cat...that's how new things are invented.
Seriously though, if code allows it, I don't see anything wrong with a properly sized solid header. IMO it is stronger than 2 boards nailed together.
Sometimes it's ok to think outside of the standard carpentry "box", there is more than one way to skin a cat...that's how new things are invented.
:thumbsup:
Yes, I would like to see calculations that show 2- 2X6's with plywood is stronger, both vertically and laterally than a DF 4X6.
Other than that, refer to IRC 502.5(1) and (2).
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Biggest problem with 4x4's (properly sized of course) is they twist. Back in the olden days, like kiteman said, 4x4's where common for 36" exterior openings single roof load only.... and just about everywhere interior non bearing. Setting pocket doors genearlly sucked. Rocking always sucked over them and trimming a house, well learned to abuse drywall for decent miters (or rolled casing 1/8" + in many cases)
Come on, Hoss.
You spent more time starting this thread than you would have just building a damn header. :blink:
If you don't like and love the work, you should get the hell out of the trade. Not being mean, I just think you'll make yourself alot happier.
The stick framing we have today is a direct result of needing something faster and easier than timberframing. At some point in time, somebody didn't love the work of traditional framing so they came up with stick framing. Just saying I think coming up with different ideas is not always bad.
Could that have been a box beam header?
Those are quite handy and are code compliant.
I think R602.2 ( if I remember right).
Andy.
Those are quite handy and are code compliant.
I think R602.2 ( if I remember right).
Andy.
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That's what I was thinking, we usually fill the back side with epsScipioAfricanus said:
Single cut on a 4X4 vs (2X) 2X4 cuts and a rip and cut on a sheet of OSB or ply plus a bunch of nails? That's an easy call,as long as the 4X4 is good quality.
The problem with 4X4s is a lot of times their dimensions don't match the studs you're using, so you'd be stuck ripping or shimming to get it to come out in wall plane on both sides. They also can twist / bow, depending - if they do, it's bigger problem than with a built up header.
The old rule of thumb was the minimum depth of the header matches the opening. This is too aggressive for much of the wood we see today.
The problem with 4X4s is a lot of times their dimensions don't match the studs you're using, so you'd be stuck ripping or shimming to get it to come out in wall plane on both sides. They also can twist / bow, depending - if they do, it's bigger problem than with a built up header.
The old rule of thumb was the minimum depth of the header matches the opening. This is too aggressive for much of the wood we see today.
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