I am going to put a custom shower pan where a tub is now. This may be a stupid question but why do you put a mud pan then rubber membrane then another mud layer instead of just one mud layer over the rubber membrane?
tile shower pan
Mcdonoughman
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How would a pan in this case made any difference?If this is Florida standards, I think I'll pass!!
The shower pan is part of the drain system, it does not protect against shoddy tile work.
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Better yet, hot mop it, like a six ply roofing system.
That is not an approved product for shower pans in Florida.
Seems to me the code has it covered pretty well already.
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1,357 Posts
I read the codes and you are correct, they are very strict. Too bad they are out of date with what is happening in the tile industry.
I don't know how many "traditional" shower pans you have ripped out but let me assure you, there are better ways to build a shower base.
Do yourself a favor and look into Schluter Kerdi.
The Tile Industry is not where shower pans are regulated, it is in the Plumbing code, because it is part of the plumbing system.
Tile does have standards for how it is installed but it is not inspected other than maybe a quick glance at final, if the job is unique like many of the ones I do, the inspector may take a closer look, just because he doesn't see much more than cookie cutter work everyday.
I looked briefly into the Schluter Kerdi sytem, it looks like they could be used in conjunction with the approved pan materials, per FBC Plumbing.
Using sloped dry pack mud under the pan and then installing a pan and then another dry pack mud on top of it is not a bad method of installing a shower, it works well, it does take a semi skilled craftsman to be able to do it properly.
Shower pans do not stop walls from rotting due to poor material choices or bad installation practices, it is part of the drain system.
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You obviously DID NOT look at Schluter as you do not use your "so-called" approved pan materials.
While I will agree that the traditional way of constructing shower pans is ACCEPTABLE, there is NO comparison between that and Kerdi.
If you look closely at how Kerdi is installed (together with Kerdi Drain), the entire shower area is 100% waterproofed before it is tiled.
Florida codes are certainly correct in stating a pre-slope must be installed, however, this does not stop saturation of the top mortar bed. Plus, many installations using a traditional shower base ARE part of the reason lower walls fail (when installed with MR drywall that is). Moisture will wick from the saturated mortar bed into the drywall.
Ask Bill or Bud who definately know their stuff, they will (I believe) tell you the same thing.
Finally, as most builders and renovators know, building codes are, in most cases, a minimun standard. Canada and more specifically Ontario have a very good code system, however, in a lot of cases, following their minimum requirements is not the best way to do things.
How would the Schluter Kerdi system here, I think it meet's the FBC Plumbing requirement for a pan system. http://www.schluter.com/8_3_kerdi_st_sc_sr.aspx
have stopped the situation mentioned here? #9
The pan system does not and can not stop rot like mentioned in the above post, the pan is for when the tile allows water to seep through, so it is caught and diverted into the shower drain.
Tile setters are licensed as a specialty in Florida if it is not being done by a Division 1 contractor, there are no requirements for permitting of tile work or inspections of tile work.
the shower pan is installed by the plumber and inspected by the Plumbing inspector usually before the tile setter is on the job.
I am a Division 1 Contractor, Certified Building Contractor and a Division 2 Contractor, Certified A/C Contractor, Plumbing is also a Division 2 Contractor.
Again, the shower pan is part of the drain, that is why it is in the Plumbing code, to do plumbing work, you have to be a licensed plumber, or work for a licensed plumber.
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1,357 Posts
If you would have read my earlier post, you would see how the Schluter system would have prevented the noted situation by waterproofing the entire assemlby before tile is applied. How does water get through a waterproof membrane exactly??
You can tell me the pan is part of the plumbing system all you want, and maybe in your neck of the woods you are correct.
That does not mean it makes any sense!!
or that it is the best way to do things.Finally, it is apparent that you are stuck in your ways and I wish you good luck!!
Wedi system
Have you ever heard of this system?
It is so easy to install! It is totally waterproof if done right.
I did one last summer, the tilesetter & customer loved it.
I can't post the website yet because I am new to this forum.
Just google Wedi.
Tom
Have you ever heard of this system?
It is so easy to install! It is totally waterproof if done right.
I did one last summer, the tilesetter & customer loved it.
I can't post the website yet because I am new to this forum.
Just google Wedi.
Tom
Lead pans are still code here, guess in new construction and remodels requiring a permit.
For residential remodels no permits required, never seen the tile police either:laughing:so I'll use the Kerdi system every time, there is NO better system out there right now, NONE.:thumbup:
For residential remodels no permits required, never seen the tile police either:laughing:so I'll use the Kerdi system every time, there is NO better system out there right now, NONE.:thumbup:
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20,832 Posts
This one wasn't so great...guess you never ripped out a Florida recessed shower.
for the longest time builders were recessing the slab with no liners.
there thought was that the water would just escape out under the home.
well Schluter and the area reps have been pushing for new plumbing codes
and in most counties they need pans now.
here is one I did with drywall, recessed slab and no pan.
Attachments
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Wow, their is so much wrong with that job!! Not only is all the tile prep work crap, whoever did the plumbing connected old galvanized to new copper- big no-no.
Angus, do you have some after photos - its always nice to see how a pro fixes an abomination like that!!
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20,832 Posts
After photos coming. Shower glass was just installed last week.
That was just the tip of all that was wrong. The electrical was nasty too. Instead of using short radius bends in the conduit, they just eliminated conduit altogether anywhere there was a 90°; just bare wire
. There were about 15 items on the circuit (laundry, etc).No vent for the plumbing. It went on and on.
Overall, for how bad it was and the budget we had to work with, I think it turned out pretty well.
Here's an in progress photo:
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1,357 Posts
Looks good so far!! Talking of electrical, I just finished my own downstairs bathroom (which is small), after gutting I found 4 hidden junction boxes!!
It never ceases to amaze me how some people work!!
It never ceases to amaze me how some people work!!
So we just had a custom shower done imn our new house(remodel) soundslike you guys are telling me it is destined to fail. My plumber refused to lay the liner(did not want the liability, the tile guy always does that, sure!!!). Tile mason says he has no problem doing it. Install as followed it is below.
Stringers are 16" on center, I dropped an LVL under the shower area to pick up the extra load of the marble, tub etc. 5/8 plywood was in good shape, I added a 2nd sheet. 2 piece drain installed, Liner was layed over the plywood, up and over entrance curb of the shower, 10" up 3 walls of shower,liner rolls into drain, pan was packed sloped and cured for 3 days, pebbele tiles installed in thin set, grouted with sanded grout, curb capped with granite threshhold.
If I read the post correctly, the subfloor underneath will rot?? Any guesses on timing, we are in New Hampshire and have a full basement. If this is true it is quite disturbing as all the guys who bid it were saying that is how they would all do it!!!!!!
Stringers are 16" on center, I dropped an LVL under the shower area to pick up the extra load of the marble, tub etc. 5/8 plywood was in good shape, I added a 2nd sheet. 2 piece drain installed, Liner was layed over the plywood, up and over entrance curb of the shower, 10" up 3 walls of shower,liner rolls into drain, pan was packed sloped and cured for 3 days, pebbele tiles installed in thin set, grouted with sanded grout, curb capped with granite threshhold.
If I read the post correctly, the subfloor underneath will rot?? Any guesses on timing, we are in New Hampshire and have a full basement. If this is true it is quite disturbing as all the guys who bid it were saying that is how they would all do it!!!!!!
If the liner was installed correctly, your subfloor probably won't be a problem. The problem will be the lack of preslope prior to the liner being installed. While the installation you described is code in most locations, you'll end up with moisture hanging out (puddling) on top of the membrane, causing mildew in the pan. over time this may cause unpleasant odors, discolored grout, and possible mortar failure in the pan.
If it was me, I'd probably live with it, but take precautions.
Make sure you have a really good vent fan.
Leave the fan on untill the room is dry after showering ( a timer works well)
Good heat/insulation?
Squeegie the shower after use. This'll help it dry faster.
If you're thoughtful, your shower will probably last a good long time.
If it was me, I'd probably live with it, but take precautions.
Make sure you have a really good vent fan.
Leave the fan on untill the room is dry after showering ( a timer works well)
Good heat/insulation?
Squeegie the shower after use. This'll help it dry faster.
If you're thoughtful, your shower will probably last a good long time.
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1,357 Posts
As mentioned, as long as the liner doesn't leak, your floor should not rot, however, I just don't understand why some people who do this kind of work don't look into what is available today.
Your mortar bed will become saturated with moisture which leads to mould. That is a given, unfortunately.
Had your installer used Schluter Kerdi, you would have a shower that would last a "lifetime". Add to that epoxy grout and you would have a shower that would last a lifetime and that was remarkably easy to keep clean and looking good.
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7,169 Posts
Jarvis how long have you been using the Kerdi system?
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