Tile Shower Pan

Mcdonoughman

I am going to put a custom shower pan where a tub is now. This may be a stupid question but why do you put a mud pan then rubber membrane then another mud layer instead of just one mud layer over the rubber membrane?

rbsremodeling

It has got to be Pre-sloped baby.

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kevjob

www.tileusa.com to see the standards, make sure you up size drain and have inspections.

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Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado
Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling
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jarvis design

A better question would be why anyone is still doing showers with liners?

I have never ripped out a "traditional" shower that wasn't saturated with water.

Kerdi - all the way - use their base or do a dry pack base - either way - it is the best system going (in my opinion!)

JazMan

I agree A surface membrane shower is the only way to go. I only use Kerdi systems. Actually I hope other tile setters in my areas keep bidding the old fashioned way. The problem is most tile guys don't build showers correctly at all. Like;

No pre-slope, they use greenboard, nail into the membrane to fasten the wall board near floor level or curb, etc. some even use mastic, well, you guys all know what goes on out there.

Jaz

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jarvis design

I don't know about in the States, but here in Canada, at least in the SouthWestern Ontario area, nobody ever does a pre-slope or have weeping holes for the moisture to escape. I can honestly say I have ripped out more than 100 tile showers and have Never seen a pre-slope base - never!!
I can also say every base was saturated with water and mould...yummy!

wizendwizard

I am doing one now that is the worst I have ever seen.

Sub floor dropped 12", liner directly over subfloor, dryset 8" thick, top sloped to 6" to drain head.

It wasn't too bad until the floor rotted and dropped out of it.

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angus242

Last one I did, the HO cut a hole in the basement slab and recessed a fiberglass pan 6" into the slab to give themselves more head room in the shower. I cannot tell you how bad it was after demo. Mold about 16" up the greenboard, every sill plate rotted and about 3" of water in the sand under the fiberglass pan.

Ceramictec

guess you never ripped out a Florida recessed shower.
for the longest time builders were recessing the slab with no liners.
there thought was that the water would just escape out under the home.
well Schluter and the area reps have been pushing for new plumbing codes
and in most counties they need pans now.

here is one I ripped out with drywall, recessed slab and no pan.

Attached Images

 

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-Brian-
Brandon Lutz Bradenton Tampa Oldsmar Westchase New Port Richey Seminole St. Pete Wesley Chapel Sarasota
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SLSTech

Its actually quite simple - you want the pre slope under the lining so any water (and yes there will be) that gets to the lining will flow down to the drain instead of seeking its own escape in a corner, or building up.

If you haven't follow the link from KevJob & I also would suggest looking into the Schluter system

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bwalley

Your Business Tax is not a license, it lists you as a subcontractor that means you can not bid work directly, you have to work under a general, residential or building contractors license.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ndID=265245043

You advertise yourself and your company as a Tile Contractor, you are required to have a license to bid and do tile work in Florida, also in the state of Florida ALL forms of advertising are required to have your license number on it and they don't mean business tax number.

The thought process behind not requiring a pan in recessed showers on the 1st floor slab on grade is if the shower leaked, it would perk through the slab, a pan is not going to keep the walls from rotting.

In all of the remodels I do, I make sure the Licensed Plumber installs a shower pan, even in situations where code does not require it.

HS345

Wow, good luck with that one.

R&D Tile

If I don't install the pan, I won't guarantee it.

Plumber install it?, yeah right.

I get involved after the plumber gets the 2" drain where I need it, I go from there.

PrecisionFloors

Same here. Most of the plumbers I've ran across couldn't install a liner correctly if their life depended on it. (no offense to you pipe wranglers out there) I've seen wadded up corners, and nail punctures pass inspections too

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bwalley

In Florida the pan is considered part of the Plumbing system, that is why it is in the Plumbing Code Book, tile guys are not legally allowed to put Pans in.

I guess Florida has stricter standards than other states.

jarvis design

Stricter Standards?? Seems more like idiotic standards if you ask me, but, alas, Florida won't be the last jurisdiction in the world to enact stupid standards such as that. We have a few of our own up here in Canada.

bwalley

Tile guys are licensed at the county level which has pretty loose standards, Division 1 License holders can do tile as well, but since the shower pan is part of the drain system in a shower it is appropriately done by the licensed Plumber.

Anyone can get a license to put in tile, it is quite a bit more difficult to get a Plumbing Contractors license.

The shower pans are installed and Inspected before the tile installer even show's up.

Installing tile does not require a permit or an inspection.

I am not sure how they do it in Canada, but in Florida we have pretty high standards of how things are supposed to be done.

R&D Tile

And, how is the pan installed per code down there.

jarvis design

If this is Florida standards, I think I'll pass!!

bwalley

Per Florida Building Code 2004, Plumbing.

I underlined where the exception to the pan is, yet in all cases, I have pans installed, evn though it is not required by FBC.

417.5 Shower floors or receptors.
Floor surfaces shall be constructed of impervious, noncorrosive, nonabsorbent and waterproof materials.


417.5.1 Support.
Floors or receptors under shower compartments shall be laid on, and supported by, a smooth and structurally sound base.


417.5.2 Shower lining.
Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4 . Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet.

Exceptions:

1. Floor surfaces under shower heads provided for rinsing laid directly on the ground are not required to comply with this section.

2. Shower compartments where the finished shower drain is depressed a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) below the surrounding finished floor on the first floor level and the shower recess is poured integrally with the adjoining floor.


417.5.2.1 PVC sheets.
Plasticized polyvinyl chloride (PVC) sheets shall be a minimum of 0.040 inch (1.02 mm) thick, and shall meet the requirements of ASTM D 4551. Sheets shall be joined by solvent welding in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.


417.5.2.2 Chlorinated polyethylene (CPE) sheets.
Nonplasticized chlorinated polyethylene sheet shall be a minimum 0.040 inch (1.02 mm) thick, and shall meet the requirements of ASTM D 4068. The liner shall be joined in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.


417.5.2.3 Sheet lead.
Sheet lead shall not weigh less than 4 pounds per square foot (19.5 kg/m 2 ) coated with an asphalt paint or other approved coating. The lead sheet shall be insulated from conducting substances other than the connecting drain by 15-pound (6.80 kg) asphalt felt or its equivalent. Sheet lead shall be joined by burning.


417.5.2.4 Sheet copper.
Sheet copper shall conform to ASTM B 152 and shall not weigh less than 12 ounces per square foot (3.7 kg/m 2 ). The copper sheet shall be insulated from conducting substances other than the connecting drain by 15-pound (6.80 kg) asphalt felt or its equivalent. Sheet copper shall be joined by brazing or soldering.