New construstion,nice house in a money area, walk out basement 20' x15' , 14' off the ground upstairs deck, wood truss joist no rim joist just praticle board.

On the first pass with the up mobile kinda builder I phone conected to his ear and bmw parked in the mason sand, I mentioned the ledger conection should really be looked at by the local permit store guy. Just fastening to the side of the 2x4 end of the truss is not going to provide what we want.

" You need a permit to build a deck ????? It's an outside deck dont give me any bull**** just tell me what the bottom line is "

The plan did not even have a footprint for a deck at all. They are almost ready for sheetrock/brick/siding.The time is right and I need the money.

But no way am I going for this without the Inspector geting involved. Dammmmm Boys I am too old for this **** !!!!!

JonMon www.deckmastersllc.com

" what part is played by the rigid moralist's envy of the pleasures of Sin ??? If they persist passion will displace reason " Bloody Williamson.

You know how to build it properly, what do you really need an inspector for?

You can educate them all you want but if the wallet insists no point in turning down a job if you can cya.

But this guy probably won't be willing to even pay for the proper job...

So. ?..

 

You can educate them all you want but if the wallet insists no point in turning down a job if you can cya.

True, but part of the CYA involves getting caught and having to deal with the same inspector on future jobs in the area. Most likely he'll give you extra loving attention for some time. :no:

 

I tried the education part with an e-mail today.

See what happens. But dimes to donuts a spanish crew will get the job.

I built a high deck North of that area a couple years ago. Same thing not even a foot print on the plan. The finnal inspection Guy was so mad he called me on the cell raving on. He red taged the job and it was a real pain for me time/money wize.

Ghesssssssssssss

J.

 

I tried the education part with an e-mail today.

See what happens. But dimes to donuts a spanish crew will get the job.

I built a high deck North of that area a couple years ago. Same thing not even a foot print on the plan. The finnal inspection Guy was so mad he called me on the cell raving on. He red taged the job and it was a real pain for me time/money wize.

Ghesssssssssssss

J.

My contract has clauses about delays caused by municipal building dept and extra costs, hence the c.y.a. part.

 

If the job starts out with cutting corners and ignoring the advise of their contractor.....

 

Give him a price including the permit if you get it all is good. If you don't and it goes to the no permit guy, call the building dept to see how the permit app @ that job is coming along. That will even things out

 

Just go with your gut on that one JonMon. 9 times out of 10 the first instinct is the best one.

I know you have already been around the block a couple of times and you don't need the experience so just shoot from the hip and keep movin'
:2guns:

 

The thing is there is already a permit on the job. It's right in the middle of town. But no mention at all of that deck on the permit or the plan.

Like I said I tried it before,when I needed the money , and nearley got my ass in a sling, I still had to rebuild the stairway for a 1/8'' differance on a single step. The guy was really mad and picked it to death.

Your right H Greag, the instinc warning is usually the right one. I will see how the e-mail takes hold.

Thanks guys !!!! J.

 

Aren't you allowed 1/8" or more of difference on rise over a set of stairs?

 

The last I heard each step had to be within 1/4'' but I was in no position to argue. That project had an upper leval with a stairway down to a lower leval. I had 2'6'' clearance from the last step to the rail the Inspector wanted 3'. I had to install a landing with steps leading out the other way.

They dont feel respected if someone tries to sneek in a deck like that without it even being on the footprint of the permit. The Man got real mad and of course I had not been paid the final draw sooooo I had to do it. If I had stonewalled,like I had a right to do I did what the builder told me to do, I would have had my money stalled for who knows how long.

Now here is a builder trying to do the same thing only worst with no rim joist. I am not going to get stuck in the middle again. Dammm shame the site is in a high $ area and an upstairs deck would make for a lot of good out there.

I know how to block in those truss members and use steel tie backs but that wont make any differance with a rabid Inspector.

JonMon

 

when I build stairs I just cut them all for an 8" rise and ask the customer if they want the last step to be one big one or 2 little ones.:laughing:

 

I will usually tell the GC, HO or whoever at the very least this will cost you a red tag & 2x's permit fees or if you're lucky you'll just have to take the whole shebang down.... I had one of my permitted jobs final inspection held up. b/c a hack electrican has screwed up something that had nothing to do w/my project......

 

Things like adding a deck after the fact can and will come back to bite you.
Example:
I tried to help an alcoholic neighbor get his bootleg garage permitted by using as-builts.
The inspector was fit to be tied, building, safety and plan check all thought I was the hack that built it.
Took months to get back in their graces.
Never again.

 

All,you hit it dead on !

For the most part the GC,or in this case the " production manger " was not intersted at all in my info. The dude just wanted to get back in his ride and start keying in with the phone.

Also right I am not going forward with that ****ollaa at all unless someone gets into reason. Right again he might be more crafty than he looks,just trying for a fool to go with it.

New construstion guys seem to figure with the house at that stage the deck is nothing worth the hassale that is in the real world,,,,important,,,:hang: Faruke Em !!! Your right the season is coming up.

It's when the permit Final comes around that tells the story and the JonMon is not going to take the fall this time :thumbup:

J.

 

Are you saying you need a separate permit for the deck on a house that is under construction? Not here. We have to have the piers inspected before we can pour concrete

 

In order for it to be covered under the initial permit, it would need to be on the plans or on revised approved plans. I can't see them just letting you building a deck with no approved plans.

 

each rise can be 3/8" different in residencial and 3/16" in commercial

 

No permit decks

I am in the middle of putting a screened in porch on top of an existing deck. Inspector came out to do a footing inspection saw that the HO had all new decking and posts that were replaced about a year ago, he passed my new footings almost immediately but failed all existing footings and wanted a soil engineering report.

He said I was doing the right thing with permitting my work, but he should have had the previous contractors work permitted even to change the decking out. I got the impression he was basically slapping the HO on the hands for doing the other work without a permit. I am just hopeful that he goes with my framing plan and doesn't kill me on that also! And yes, of course this is one of those jobs that is tight on money, just can't afford anymore mistakes.

Glad I had that CYA on others work clause in the contract!

 

The thing is when you have a permit store guy on the job and someone has tried to sneak a project in without even a preview or talking to them at all it insults the Guy.

I dont blame them that is blatant,flagrant disrespect. The Inspectors over here are not hard to please with decks, 18'' footings, a decent span,joist hangers simple things like that. In fact no detail is needed just a footprint overlayed on the land showing easements.

Mabey the young man will get off the phone , out of the beemer, and take a lesson from an Old Tradesman. Or mabey not.

JonMon www.deckmastersllc.com

 

What no plans, I had to send Terry Marone of Southfield 38 pages for a 12 x 14 deck. Needless to say there is no love, Thankfully there are 58 other communities we work in.

 

3/8" max between largest and smallest is the standard both in residential and commercial unless a local AHJ makes an amendment upon adoption of the code.

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ic...012/icod_ibc_2012_10_sec009_par023.htm?bu=IC-P-2012-000001&bu2=IC-P-2012-000019

 

The permit process is totally different, here in CA now.

In a case like Jon's, it's a no brainer, you need a permit.

You guys might be amazed at the percentage of folks that will absolutly refuse to get a permit, out here, in my area. I would have been out of business long ago, if I held to the principal of having to get a permit everytime it is required.

Luckily, we don't have permit police. they are way too understaffed to go looking for violaters. If there is a complaint, they are obligated to investigate, but that is it.

 

In a case like Jon's, it's a no brainer, you need a permit.

You guys might be amazed at the percentage of folks that will absolutly refuse to get a permit, out here, in my area. I would have been out of business long ago, if I held to the principal of having to get a permit everytime it is required.
L/QUOTE]

Same here. I tell every single client they should have a permit, but when they find out how much is costs and how long it takes, they just don't want to bother.

 

:scooter:In Cow Town OKC a permit costs $60. Same charge for anything. On a good day a person can get it in 45 min. There is no Builders license set up at all over here. A 5 year old could build a half million house in a real sense.

I dont go after them usually. The only time it's nessecary is in the hysterical areas, working on new counstrustion, or when the neighbors do not get along and will call in a heart beat to screw them and me up. The permit store has no interest in any detail just the easements. It's all up to the Contractor to know what they want and what makes for good building.

No word back from the Production Manager as yet. Most often with a deal like this the HO just wanted to know how much that pipe dream would cost. This always happens at the end of the build when the money is short.

Looking back I have never had a job go well working for a GC.

After thought >>> The dude could have just wanted to know what the going rate was so He could build it for the Ho and know the price was right. <<< J.

JonMon www.deckmastersllc.com

 

John,

Maybe this contractor is just looking for price but if you want to appeal to other GC's doing new construction you need to know what they need...................they want you to solve their problems, sometimes for the cheapest price and other times they just want it done right and will say yes if you can talk the talk.

I'm a small GC/Remodeler (no new house builds) and we do our own framing and decks ...............buuuuuuut.............if I asked you to bid a new Ipe deck on a newer house we were remodeling and you had never dealt with floor trusses/engineered lumber before I would think you were not up to speed on what is out there as this stuff has been around for 20 years.

"YOU" want to be the guy that has the solutions for all my problems.

Give a call to your lumberyard and talk to the floor truss designer and engineer on staff or call I-Level, etc and find out what is required to properly attach a deck to the floor trusses or I-joist rim. Maybe you may need to pay an engineer some $$ one time for some info that will be good for a bunch of decks with the same criteria.

Again, I'm not ripping on you but I doubt you will get any sympathy here for having to spend $60 and 45 min. to get a permit for a $15,000+ deck.

 

Hey Jon,
I have read your posts for many years on decks and deck finishes and know you know whats going on as far as decks are concerned. Please don't take this the wrong way but heres my take on your situation with this deck from what you've posted:

1. You posted - "On the first pass with the up mobile kinda builder i phone conected to his ear and bmw parked in the mason sand"

My reply: Did this lead cost you anything?........ Would you rather show up in a trailer park or low level subdivision with the guy in an 89' Ford Ranger with 3 grand to spend on a PT deck?........ Does Greag D walk away from decks where the customers drive more expensive vehicles than he does?................

2. You posted- "I mentioned the ledger conection should really be looked at by the local permit store guy.

My reply: You should know what this connection should be and when applying for the permit or when the inspector comes by for the framing inspection "he/she will know that you know what is required".

3. You posted- "Wood truss joist no rim joist just practicle board".

My reply: Which is it? Floor trusses (as far as I know) do not require a rim board but usually have 1-1/2" of foam plus sheathing here in MN. If it is an I-joist it may require an OSB, LSL or LVL rim depending on the work its doing which will affect how you attach a deck.

4. You posted- "Just fastening to the side of the 2x4 end of the truss is not going to provide what we want".

My reply: How do you know what is required? Are you an engineer?........Of course not and neither am I. Its possible you may have to sister on a 2x4 (or 4x4 or railroad tie :laughing: or whatever) to the side or between the floor truss/I joist to lag into, but there is a way to do it properly.

5. You posted -"They are almost ready for sheetrock/etc."

My reply: You need to sell this as needing to get your blocking/hardware/whatever/etc. in place asap before the sheetrock goes up and will hide the rim fastening area or it will be fastening area x2$ or x3$ if its done after rock is up.

 

Biding is an art form. When times get tough like they are now it's also a warning system. With This guy several red flags went up. I am always looking for clues when I bid,good ones and bad ones, nothing but bad came up on that one.

A 3' x 4' Mediterranean balcony had already been roughed in fastened by gun nails to the 2x4 ends and the partical board. Scabed in 2x4s holding it up. This was a fishing attempt.

Questioning the need for a permit tells me this Deck is low down on the man's adventures. By the time the house is at that stage a " simple" thing like that is not worth a lot of his time.

The more I tell a person like this the more he gets for free. I hit the high points with the e-mail enough to establish credentials,mentioned the job that got red taged, mentioned a landing might be in order because a good legal stairway would extend to the property line,and gave him a price. $12,000.00 if you can belive it thats how bad it is over here.

Far as sympathy goes you can extend that up your lower orifice, soak in an accelerant and apply ignition. Also I have more money in my 97 two door Tahoe than two of those bemmers. The advanced Jasper motor/tranie alone would buy one of them,tires/wheels would buy the other, and it's a class ride not a wind up car. Helllll I would rather have my cheep little 1200 Sportster than a german spark jumper. And I dont like people who talk on the phone while talking to me at the same time.

In conclusion I am not able to get a separated deck permit for new consturction that already has an overall. It dont work that way.


JonMon www.deckmastersllc.com

Side Note >>> I went back over there yesterday sure enough that build has started. The little balcony is gone and the 2 x 12 ledger is up gun nailed fastened like they were in target practice with a mac 10. <<<

 

JonMon www.deckmastersllc.com

Side Note >>> I went back over there yesterday sure enough that build has started. The little balcony is gone and the 2 x 12 ledger is up gun nailed fastened like they were in target practice with a mac 10. <<<

That was good for a sunday morning laugh. Not just the target pratice either.

 

Nows your chance, call the building department and ask how the deck permit application is coming along for that job, when they tell you there is none, calmly tell them that there is one going up, and you are afraid of child safety, etc. Than watch the fur fly.

 

That's not my way Steve. Although the satisfaction factor would be in high gear.

I am not a cop caller either. I try to become water like Bruce lee.

In my leval of Contracting knowing how much it takes to build the Job and how much I will make after the smoke clears is the Key. Nothing else really matters. If I had a manufacturning/product concern my advance might be different.

Yesterday I underbid a poor guy on a 16 x 20 low to the ground by $2000.00. I think the reason being the differance between hearing and listening, knowing what I can do, good help and good material contacts. Mostley the same thing that kept me from doing that upstairs project.

J.

 

That's not my way Steve. Although the satisfaction factor would be in high gear.
J.

When the deck falls off the house and kills 12 people because the ledger was only nailed on and now new code legislation gets pushed through making your job even more than a PITA maybe you'd call then? :laughing::thumbup:

 

well than you really should quit whining about no permit guys on this post if you won't do anything about it.
I don't like it when people break in to my house and am more than willing to fight about it.
Why have liscensing and permits at all. Might just as well as lay down and die and let the Mongolian hordes run over you.

 

When the deck falls off the house and kills 12 people because the ledger was only nailed on and now new code legislation gets pushed through making your job even more than a PITA maybe you'd call then? :laughing::thumbup:

You mean just nails isn't good enough?