I have never heard of a case where an electric water heater failing has electrocuted anyone, but you do have a good point.

 

I have.

 

How often does someone complete an electrical circuit between a water heater and ground?

The difference between the electricity available in your kitchen or bathroom is that you are plugging something into a receptacle. And what you plug in may or may not have a fault in it. If it does, the GFI will detect that fault and disconnect power.

If the heating elements are in direct contact with the water, then would not that create a ground fault and trip the breaker? Then you would only have a large water storage tank.

I think you're trying to apply the old-wives' tale of "Electricity and water don't mix" to an appliance that contains water and has electricity suplied tot it. But what about the ice maker in your fridge? Your garbage disposal in the sink? Your washing machine? Dishwasher? Aren't all these items connected to both water and electricity? Do you GFI them?

 

Sparky,

I'm just sayin' I'm not sure I see the difference between a blown insulator on a water heater element and a hair dryer in the bathtub.

As for the rest of those appliance, you're generally not standing in the water of your dishwasher to be the link that completes the circuit, no?

 

The difference between the water heater element and the hairdryer in the bathtub is with the hairdryer, it is easily to become part of the circuit between it and ground. How often does a person, under ordinary, every-day circumstances, get near anything electrical that's sealed inside a water heater when it is energized? Just as often as all the other appliances I listed.

If you're not standing in water when you're operating your dishwasher, garbage disposal, fridge or washing machine, then you're probably not the type that will be standing in water when you're operating your water heater.

 

We require gfci outlets when electricity is available within 3-feet of water,...

Who requires this?

 

Top element was shorted out. Neither the heater nor the water distribution system was grounded. Guy touched the shower valve and got juiced with 120v. He was ok though.

 

Then he was not electrocuted.

 

Well, he felt electricity flowing thru his body and there was in fact voltage present at the valve. How do you figure that he wasn't?

 

When a person is "electrocuted" - they are dead.

 

I was always under then impression that electrocution is when someone has electricity from flowing threw their body at a sufficient voltage and current to cause discomfort. If your definition is the correct one then when it is stated on the news that "a man died from electrocution" it is somewhat of a redundant statement no?

 

If you have electric current flowing through your body, you are experiencing electrical shock. If it is powerful enough, it kills you and the medical examiner puts electrocution on your death certificate.

I don't recall anyone on death row being put in the chair and 'shocked' to death. :whistling

 

I just looked it up and you are correct.

Let me correct my former statement: He was shocked when he grabbed the shower valve, he was ok though.

 

I just looked it up and you are correct.

TY
I'll leave my post up for others....I'm watching "Good Fellas" ~ so there's a bit of a lag effect :laughing:

 

When he touched that shower valve he was standing on some surface that helped to complete a circuit back to the voltage source somehow or other. He became part of that circuit, however limited by resistance enough that he only felt shock, it did not "electrocute" him. That person should have his dwelling checked for metal piping system bonding problems, even if he has had the element on his water heater repaired and there is no longer any fault current present on the water piping. However, with blown heater elements, there can be sometimes only a tiny fraction of current fault level, enough to get a shock, but not enough to trip the circuit breaker. A gfi in this case would actually be a pretty good way of preventing that scenerio. There is a proposal form in the back of every code book. Anybody can submit for a change. Go for it.

 

I agree. I did note on the invoice that there are serious electrical grounding issues and that he needs to call a licensed electrician to check the building's grounding system. I could have bonded the heater but I am not licensed nor insured to do electrical work so I referred that portion of the job out.

When he touched that shower valve he was standing on some surface that helped to complete a circuit back to the voltage source somehow or other. He became part of that circuit, however limited by resistance enough that he only felt shock, it did not "electrocute" him. That person should have his dwelling checked for metal piping system bonding problems, even if he has had the element on his water heater repaired and there is no longer any fault current present on the water piping. However, with blown heater elements, there can be sometimes only a tiny fraction of current fault level, enough to get a shock, but not enough to trip the circuit breaker. A gfi in this case would actually be a pretty good way of preventing that scenerio. There is a proposal form in the back of every code book. Anybody can submit for a change. Go for it.

 

It would only trip the breaker if the heater was grounded. Since the heater was not grounded, the circuit was not complete and therefore no current could flow to trip the breaker. The circuit was only closed to ground when he touched the faucet that was attached to the heater via the potable water distribution system. The only path to ground was thru his body at that point.

 

So you think GFIs are the solution to poor, incorrect and dangerous installations?
How about installing something correctly, safely and to code and we would NOT need anyone suggesting GFIs for water heaters. :whistling

 

There was a case in Florida, a few years back, where a plumber or HVAC man was injured [maybe died???] due to contact w/electricity.

I think a dryer or washing machine was involved.

I cannot find the article.....anyone?

 

Water as an electrical conductor.

 

Incorrect

 

It will be a short circuit to ground.

I will test your theory on a water heater tommorow, and I guarantee you it will trip the breaker.

 

120v will be applied to the 12.8 ohm (4500w) heater element and 18.75 amps will flow from one pole of the double pole 30 amps breaker thru the element to ground. Since only 18.75 amps is flowing it will not exceed the breakers 30 amp trip point and the current will continue to flow thru the element uninterrupted generating heat until the water is heated to the set point of the upper thermostat. At that point, the thermostat will reroute voltage to the lower thermostat away from the upper element and all heating from the upper element will cease.

Now that we have established that, let me go the next step and ask the question again but with a new twist this time:

Let’s say that I remove the wire connected to the switched side of the upper element and connect a new wire that is connected to ground. What will happen? Why?

 

120v will be applied to the 12.8 ohm (4500w) heater element and 18.75 amps will flow from one pole of the double pole 30 amps breaker thru the element to ground. Since only 18.75 amps is flowing it will not exceed the breakers 30 amp trip point and the current will continue to flow thru the element uninterrupted generating heat until the water is heated to the set point of the upper thermostat. At that point, the thermostat will reroute voltage to the lower thermostat away from the upper element and all heating from the upper element will cease.

Now that we have established that, let me go the next step and ask the question again but with a new twist this time:

Let’s say that I remove the wire connected to the switched side of the upper element and connect a new wire that is connected to ground. What will happen? Why?

When the circuit is closed it will trip the breaker, again because the 120v line has a direct path to ground.

 

Incorrect again. It will not trip because the current must first flow thru the element to get to ground. The element has a resistance of 12.8. Since a voltage of 120v is being applied to a resistive element of 12.8ohms, a current of 18.75 amps will flow and that is not more than the 30 amp breaker. But wait there's more.....................................

 

You forget that I'm a local bud. If you really doubt these basic electrical concepts (ohms law) you aren't qualified to even comment on this thread.

There is no doubt in my mind that the breaker will NOT trip in that experiment. I am speaking from both an electrical theory stand point as well as 10 years of first hand experience servicing electric water heaters on an almost daily basis.

No one who has any experience/training servicing electric water heaters would debate what I just said. If you understood Ohm's law (the most basic electrical concept there is), you would not even need to waste your time with such an experiment. I'm not trying to insult you or make you feel dumb, it's just obvious to anyone who knows what's what that you are not schooled or vetted in this particular subject.

I'll just go ahead and answer my old hypothetical questions for tonight for the sake of educating anyone else who may be reading this thread.

 

You forget that I'm a local bud. If you really doubt these basic electrical concepts (ohms law) you aren't qualified to even comment on this thread.

There is no doubt in my mind that the breaker will NOT trip in that experiment. I am speaking from both an electrical theory stand point as well as 10 years of first hand experience servicing electric water heaters on an almost daily basis.

No one who has any experience/training servicing electric water heaters would debate what I just said. If you understood Ohm's law (the most basic electrical concept there is), you would not even need to waste your time with such an experiment. I'm not trying to insult you or make you feel dumb, it's just obvious to anyone who knows what's what that you are not schooled or vetted in this particular subject.

I'll just go ahead and answer my old hypothetical questions for tonight for the sake of educating anyone else who may be reading this thread.

Do you want to come over to my house and try your theory and watch the breaker trip?

I live in Plant City which is very close to Lakeland where I think you are, I am between exit 19 and exit 17 off of I 4.

How much are you willing to bet?

Let me know and I will get you my address.

 

Since the voltage is not coming from the switched side of the upper thermostat, the element will now heat (At a lower output than normal) higher then the thermostats set point (the thermostat only switches one of the two poles) and when the upper tank reaches a temperature of 160F degrees the high limit thermo disk will trip and cut all voltage to all thermostats and elements until manually reset (which will not fix the problem).

Are we up to speed on things? If you don't understand the basics I can't make you understand the next level.

 

Tell ya what man. Keep your $100. I'll do it myself and you can just watch the video. I'll be right back.

 

Here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCqw_Od1PPU

Give it a few minutes for youtube to process it.

If you are insistent on giving away $100 I'll still come over tomorrow and we can do it again on your heater.

 

That is fantastic!!I think it's worth a hundred bucks.

 

This comment right here is what has Mr. Walley off a bit

Since a voltage of 120v is being applied to a resistive element of 12.8ohms

He is treating it like one leg off the breaker directly....it's just a resistor. The element that is. I understand what he is saying, but he has the concept of the actual element wrong.

 

Are the plumbers having to give electrical lessons again??:w00t::clap::w00t:

 

Who would have thought the day that 5 or 6 grown men have a discussion of facts.

That the arguement would be settled on you tube. This is incredible.

From now on if you want to prove someone wrong on CT, you need a you tube clip of the facts.

No more of this he said she said crap:laughing:

 

Who would have thought the day that 5 or 6 grown men have a discussion of facts.

That the arguement would be settled on you tube. This is incredible.

Just make sure you pick your skivvies up off the floor...:whistling

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/military.electrocutions/

"The report found that a water pump installed by military contractor KBR was not grounded, leading to Maseth's electrocution when it short-circuited. "

The water pump. Way back up the line from the water heater. Electrocuted through the shower.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/military.electrocutions/

"The report found that a water pump installed by military contractor KBR was not grounded, leading to Maseth's electrocution when it short-circuited. "

The water pump. Way back up the line from the water heater. Electrocuted through the shower.

What KBR is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq has no bearing on this conversation. What is going on there is gross negligence and incompetence.

Who really knows what is happening there? Plumbing is being used for ground, but is mistakenly being heated up. Any Handyman99 can go to work for KBR an electrician, and when the hooking up the right colors becomes difficult, they only have to do what is easy, because no one can "prove" otherwise.

This thread has become a three pronged conversation:

(1) Is it a urban plumbing legend about someone getting shocked in the shower

(2) Is a hot water heater thermostat SPST or DPDT?

(3) Why isn't a GFCI required on a HWT? ( Answer, because it is redundant. It should be correctly grounded with a ground wire bundled with the conductors in conduit, NM, or MC, and ran all the way to the panel).

 

To GFI or not to GFI

I would not be surprised in the least if GFCI protection would be required on electric water heaters in the future. They're required on Hot Tubs, which is nothing more than an open water heater. Your swimming pool equipment has to have it. Just wait & see

 

I would not be surprised in the least if GFCI protection would be required on electric water heaters in the future. They're required on Hot Tubs, which is nothing more than an open water heater. Your swimming pool equipment has to have it. Just wait & see

hot tubs have pumps, lights and other controls in addition to the heater.

 

A GFCI device exists for one reason. It is to protect people, not appliances. Pumps that move water, and said water has people immursed must be bonded.