You've never thrown a hail mary number and got the job?

If he's already busy, it's worth a shot.

I've also thrown stupid numbers if a friend is also bidding and we talked and decided he should get it, makes his bid look way more reasonable.

 

That's collusion. Something I wouldn't recommend admitting to in an open forum.

 

Just received a bid from a sub, $50k for what is in reality a $20k project. It looks to me like the fellow is looking to clear $5k per day profit off of a three man crew. Why bother wasting your time driving out to look at the job, then writing an estimate that you know is going to get tossed in the garbage? The guy knew I was a GC, and it's pretty obvious I've been around the horn a time or two, is it just the hope that I'm stupid or desperate?
It annoys me in that it was a waste of my time even talking to the guy. At the price he wanted I could have purchased all of the tools, equipment, and material to do the job, hired tradesmen at $100 an hour each to do the work, and still come out ahead.

I'm through ranting now. I wonder what's going to piss me off tomorrow?

I do this when I get to the job and realize that I don’t want to work for the customer for one reason or another.

I’ll give a very high bid to either “ outrage “ the guy or get the job and make working for an idiot worth the trouble.

 

I do this when I get to the job and realize that I don’t want to work for the customer for one reason or another.
I’ll give a very high bid to either “ outrage “ the guy or get the job and make working for an idiot worth the trouble.

I have a rule. When I realize that the customer is going to be a problem I never submit a bid. I will not work for them anyway so why bother. The hardest thing to learn is when to fire a prospect. Learn they are an atty....I will not work for them. I have never had a job go easily when an attorney is involved. Not once. I have had to sue or be sued or even negotiate with them after the fact (one was T&M paid end of week every week with acceptance of work signed every week, still the attorney tried to sue me in the end with everything to code and perfect). I won't do it again knowingly. Not at ANY price.

 

Why don’t you post what the job consisted of so we can get a better idea


Mike

 

When I first started out I learned real quick that the high-ballers didn’t know what they were doing, not the other way around. Good subs know what to charge, they don’t guess.

 

If they are new guys though, it's better for them to not get a job due to being way high than to come in way under and both lose their ass and put a hurt on the whole job potentially because they can't or won't finish it.

It also depends on what they are used to. If they have been bidding a lot of state work with prevailing wage, it can be a big shock to go back to bidding normal work, the costs associated are totally different worlds.

 

And, they are charging triple now. Whoever isn’t is leaving way too much on the table


Mike

 

I dont see any subs charging triple here to me or other builders, If a foundation would of been 45,000 in early 2020 it'd probably 65-70k now, not 135k. Plumbing and electric are up about 50%. Masons are the same, stucco is up about a buck a ft, tile labor is slightly higher. Drywall is up about 20%, spray foam 40%. Painting is up about a buck a ft

As said above no one's business what someone charges but if it's triple probably some pretty good competiton who will swoop in and take the marketshare that sub that's triple charging builders bring to the party.

Small projects can be triple for sure. Paid 5k for 3 rock columns the other day 😆. A single shower for an amigo was about 50% higher than normal but I dont blame him it's one shower when he's usually getting 2-6 showers, multiple backsplashes, floors etc... from me

 

As a G.C. I realize @ the top of the market boom, prices on everything are steadily climbing. As a sub on the other hand, I’m gonna get what I can while I can. It’s happening everywhere. Prices that were a year or two ago are no longer. I know where my subs prices need to be in this historic market. I also know where my comm. prices as a sub stand. It’s the new age get over it


Mike

 

As a sub on the other hand, I’m gonna get what I can while I can.

Preach.

If you can't make money this year, you never will.

I'm trying to put back as much as possible for the next time things slow down. The only thing I don't own outright right now is my truck, but I want to go into it completely debt free and with enough stuff to continue being able to work even though slow times.

 

If we had an idea of what the job consisted of, I’m sure it would shed more light for the 4th time


Mike

 

Talking comm. Know many subs that are up that much but definitely not all. But, all are much higher than1 - 2 years ago region depending. You wouldn’t beleive what framers are getting in Atlanta





Mike

 

And here I'm sitting on 250' rolls of 10, 12, 14 GA wire, and no use in sight.

No electricians in sight, either.

 

I’ll pay shipping. 👍🤣😳😬

 

When osb went from $10. To $50. did you ask the vendor why they bothered? Anybody that knows anything about business is doing the same. You wanna state what the bid consisted of now


Mike

 

Apparently you don't understand the situation. When OSB hit $80 a sheet I shopped around. Had I found other vendors that were selling it for twenty, I would have stopped doing business with the first vendor.
Price from another reputable sub for the work was just over $20k. Had another fellow who said he could do it for "around" $12k, but he wasn't licensed so I didn't consider using him.

 

Complementary Bidding:
Complementary bidding (also known as
“cover” or “courtesy” bidding) occurs
when some competitors agree to submit
bids that either are too high to be accepted
or contain special terms that will not be
acceptable to the buyer. Such bids are not
intended to secure the buyer’s acceptance,
but are merely designed to give the
appearance of genuine competitive
bidding. Complementary bidding schemes
are the most frequently occurring forms of
bid rigging, and they defraud purchasers
by creating the appearance of competition
to conceal secretly inflated prices.

 

Yep. Comp bids are the norm in local public bids too. Crooked contractors and dunce city management

Very hard to prosecute collusion though, atleast in Texas. When I was TAB board three cases were brought up state wide that year and all three cases were dismissed

 

These diamond doors are a prefect example of saying yes or no.

My designer priced these through a national door/drawer box fabricator. There are 16 total these 8 are the largest at ~16x16, 4 are RSWO.

The price from the fabricator to get these to me was just under 7500.

The cut for glass doors were ~650, the diamond inserts were 6500, the shipping was 350.

The fabricator knows most shops don’t make their own doors (or drawer boxes) anymore, let alone something like these. I understand these would have to be done by their custom shop people.

My decision was, no, we’ll fab them here.

We will have 10 hours in these, the material for the inserts is drop off from this job. Didn’t need to get anything special to fab these.

The fabricator was asked for a cost for these, I guess they shouldn’t have bothered sending the estimate……….

Tom

 

Folks this ain’t hard to understand.

No one is questioning the “right” of any company to charge what they damn well please.

On the other hand, if I walked into an ordinary steakhouse and found all the steaks were $600 dollars, it would probably elicit a What In The Sideways FKK from me, I’d walk out, and probably post about the crazy steakhouse on CT.

That’s it.

There is a “market value” for almost everything. I know this because if I started bidding basic new construction with mid range upgrades for $1,200 SF, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t get any takers.

It’s extremely efficient for a GC to know ballpark numbers on sub work. Thats how I can ballpark estimates for customers. If I suddenly got a roof quote from one sub that was 4 times the price of all the others I’d probably wonder what his problem was and bichh about it here. 👍🤣

 

It's not illegal, or even immoral, so I have no problem admitting I've done it.

Like the other guy said, it's not price fixing, it's just me declining a bid by pricing myself out of it....much like the sub you are complaining about did.

 

Read the link I posted. The conditions, actions, and intent are clearly spelled out.

 

I'm curious as to why someone would waste their time bidding the job if they didn't want the work?

 

Bid it at a price that you would want to do it for? Like if it's an ******* customer that you really don't want to deal with, but an extra 20 grand would make it pallateable - maybe they go for it?

 

That's not always the case though. I had a painter bid a cabinet finish earlier this year. I got the job using his price and he still didn't want the work, but was too unprofessional to tell me straight up. There were no issues between us, so no reason not to do the work other than he didn't want to and didn't expect to get the job with the quoted price. The painter I had do the work was less than 1/3 of the other painter. Both painters are the top of the line in town. The second painter has done more work for me and will get more as I need their service. The original painter will never get work or a good word from me ever. If the original painter had just told me he was too busy, then great I'll catch you on the next one.

 

He didn't bid it high enough to want to do it then.

 

Apparently not. Though the experience gave me the opportunity to find a painter who does as good of work and doesn't give me bids on work they don't want to do or rather prices the work they want to do correctly the first time.

 

Yeah, ended up being a big win for you! Might be a case of the trash taking itself out.

 

Oh man, I have a lot of rework to do here too. 30 years of hackery performed by the local rent-a-drunk ... found 2 "splices" in some 14/2 in the attic, and a nonsensical spiderweb of stupid up there. Ideally I'd like to put a new panel and rewire it all, but making it safe is priority 1 right now.

On the plus side, it'll be a bit easier since theres only about 2" of insulation up there! When I get ready, I'm gonna suck all that out, bring in the sparkies and let'em give it the what for, then seal everything up, stick some baffles in and blow it to ... as deep as I can get it without burying the air handler.

 

2" of insulation up there! When I get ready, I'm gonna suck all that out, bring in the sparkies and let'em give it the what for, then seal everything up, stick some baffles in and blow it to ... as deep as I can get it without burying the air handler.

If this is your house or property:
If you are sucking it all out then lay in one layer of R19 paper faced and go 90 to that with another layer of unfaced. That gives you REALLY good insulation and you can put down catwalks and such where you need access. The problem with blow in is that any time anyone goes in there they will compress the insulation and you have to blow more. I just finished mine that way for under 1K and some work. I put in Thermal reflective barrier under the rafters (Florida here) for about 9 cents a foot plus time ( average a few degrees over ambient now). First month I saved almost 30% in utilities and it is too hot and humid to finish some of it.

 

Just received a bid from a sub, $50k for what is in reality a $20k project. It looks to me like the fellow is looking to clear $5k per day profit off of a three man crew. Why bother wasting your time driving out to look at the job, then writing an estimate that you know is going to get tossed in the garbage? The guy knew I was a GC, and it's pretty obvious I've been around the horn a time or two, is it just the hope that I'm stupid or desperate?
It annoys me in that it was a waste of my time even talking to the guy. At the price he wanted I could have purchased all of the tools, equipment, and material to do the job, hired tradesmen at $100 an hour each to do the work, and still come out ahead.

I'm through ranting now. I wonder what's going to piss me off tomorrow?

Find another Sub! If it seems too high then it likely is, but I would have them explain why they are so much more. If they can not explain it, then don't hire them. If you do hire them be on the lookout for change orders from them; likely best to just not use them.

 

I ended up finding a fellow for a fair price.

 

At the price he wanted I could have purchased all of the tools, equipment, and material to do the job, hired tradesmen at $100 an hour each to do the work, and still come out ahead.

I'm through ranting now. I wonder what's going to piss me off tomorrow?

I remember 2006. I was remodeling my own home. Sent for bids for float and texture. Repairs were done, it was good tight Lathe and Plaster. They wanted over 6000 for 1 bath, kitchen, 3 bedroom, laundry and living room in 1200 sq ft house.
I wanted it done TODAY, but for that price I could have purchased a bazooka, and compressor and texture hopper and done everything. Hell the bazooka wasn't even needed as I had done all the joints and repairs!. At the same time I hired the best finish carpenter I have ever seen, for 35 an hour. he was done in HALF my estimate of time!!! I did the texture (hand skip trowel) and paint and even now am glad I did.
I remember that I never talked to any of those bidders again about anything and never recommended them again either.

 

He's obviously already too busy....and it was his way of telling you that. If he'd have gotten it he'd have fit you in.
Happens all the time. Some guys have their favorites to work for also. You know...the guys whose sites are immaculately clean and truly ready when they arrive.

 

Getting good subs are getting harder and harder to find. I feel like there is some gouging going on with the supply prices been jacked. As the carpenter/GC we have all the leg work and hundreds of hours while the subs have a week or less of time on a project.
Its getting to be less worth while.

Yesterday my electrician came back to finalize some minor stuff. He got off to a bad start as multiple suppliers were out of supplies before getting to me. He gets to me and the customer has a couple of other problems thrown at him. Dishwasher dont work and they want a "smart thermostat". The dishwasher outlet was wired illegally, wrong and dangling deep behind the sink base behind a pipe no less. So aggravation was mounting, it was even wired wrong in the basement which once hes guys saw they corrected but then it wasnt working upstairs.....continue to the thermostat and there was no common wire so he needed to fish new line to the boiler using the attic downward in the heat.

He was done before I got back but was apparently ranting and bitching out loud during it all and the husband called me last night saying his wife was upset and had no appetite to eat this guy was loud and rude. He said this reflects bad on my company hiring people like this.....WTF....its getting worse.

Sometimes you find a good skilled tradesman but cant carry the proper paperwork to do business or he does but cant accommodate you in a timely manner for your work. It just sucks