who is responsible'?
9823
107
project is being run by GC
Me= the plumber
homeowner= somewhat of a pack rat(basement semi full)
im repiping the whole house (mansion)---1st floor ceilings opened up by other- asbestos removal by other
40+ hours to get the whole repipe done
1 day into the project so far---all basement piping has been demo'd
i show up and nothing is covered in the basement, nothing is moved...i have to repipe over the top of all their junk....i use a bucket to catch the large amounts of water...drips i let go though.....floor drains in every room in the basement..so in open area's i let the water flow where it wants to...spent 1 hour cleaning up....trashed all my towels....
homeowner is upset.....she didnt know that a repipe on a large 1920's would be messy....she seemed shocked that i even had to turn the water off...
builder is not handling it well and says the homeowner wants to meet with me on Monday to show me things in the basement.....
i think its the builders job to explain things to the homeowner, prepare the house, clean the basement or plastic wrap everything.....its not a plumbers job to prep the house........am i right?
if i were the only contractor and working directly for the homeowner i would have explained things and told them to cover or add preping the house to my contract...i worry if i get yelled at that i will blame the builder...he is putting me in that situation where i will need to bad talk him to defend myself
homeowner says i should have told her during the demo phase and she would have moved/covered things.....so much junk it would have taken days to clear out the basement and around 3 storage units...preping the basement w/ plastic would be a 4+ hour job.
how do you handle this situation?....im thinking of just telling her that preping the basement isnt my job, talk to the GC
the homeowner is also angry with the demo guys who did put up plastic for their work...they are paying for a free house cleaning because they made dust......0 chance im paying for anything
i will most likely not be working for this GC anymore
Me= the plumber
homeowner= somewhat of a pack rat(basement semi full)
im repiping the whole house (mansion)---1st floor ceilings opened up by other- asbestos removal by other
40+ hours to get the whole repipe done
1 day into the project so far---all basement piping has been demo'd
i show up and nothing is covered in the basement, nothing is moved...i have to repipe over the top of all their junk....i use a bucket to catch the large amounts of water...drips i let go though.....floor drains in every room in the basement..so in open area's i let the water flow where it wants to...spent 1 hour cleaning up....trashed all my towels....
homeowner is upset.....she didnt know that a repipe on a large 1920's would be messy....she seemed shocked that i even had to turn the water off...
builder is not handling it well and says the homeowner wants to meet with me on Monday to show me things in the basement.....
i think its the builders job to explain things to the homeowner, prepare the house, clean the basement or plastic wrap everything.....its not a plumbers job to prep the house........am i right?
if i were the only contractor and working directly for the homeowner i would have explained things and told them to cover or add preping the house to my contract...i worry if i get yelled at that i will blame the builder...he is putting me in that situation where i will need to bad talk him to defend myself
homeowner says i should have told her during the demo phase and she would have moved/covered things.....so much junk it would have taken days to clear out the basement and around 3 storage units...preping the basement w/ plastic would be a 4+ hour job.
how do you handle this situation?....im thinking of just telling her that preping the basement isnt my job, talk to the GC
the homeowner is also angry with the demo guys who did put up plastic for their work...they are paying for a free house cleaning because they made dust......0 chance im paying for anything
i will most likely not be working for this GC anymore
1 - 20 of 108 Posts
RE: Who Is Responsible'?
wow.
I'm a GC and I think your responsible for YOUR actions. You looked at the job and if you didn't look in the basement it's all on you. If you did look in the basement did you and the GC come up with a plan ? If you need to move stuff to do your job you should have priced that in. If the GC was going to be your moving boy , did you give him a heads up on when it needed to be done? I'm not trying to be critical of you. But, I
see it all to often that the sub's think their to be catered to. We have to run the JOB, clean up after subs, help with moving stuff, and keep homeowners happy, and ect.,ect.
Lets just say your dripping water ruined something in the basement.
Are you going to pay for it ? Should the GC ? Did He have a line item in his budget for paying for damage caused by others . So now your going to leave him on the hook to pay for something you may have damaged.
Or worse , She'll hold back finial payment to him . But, you'll still get paid , won't you ?
We ALL HAVE TO WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER.
This stuff is hard enough without making more work and problem for each other.
Just my opinion.
wow.
I'm a GC and I think your responsible for YOUR actions. You looked at the job and if you didn't look in the basement it's all on you. If you did look in the basement did you and the GC come up with a plan ? If you need to move stuff to do your job you should have priced that in. If the GC was going to be your moving boy , did you give him a heads up on when it needed to be done? I'm not trying to be critical of you. But, I
see it all to often that the sub's think their to be catered to. We have to run the JOB, clean up after subs, help with moving stuff, and keep homeowners happy, and ect.,ect.
Lets just say your dripping water ruined something in the basement.
Are you going to pay for it ? Should the GC ? Did He have a line item in his budget for paying for damage caused by others . So now your going to leave him on the hook to pay for something you may have damaged.
Or worse , She'll hold back finial payment to him . But, you'll still get paid , won't you ?
We ALL HAVE TO WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER.
This stuff is hard enough without making more work and problem for each other.
Just my opinion.
Always remember, someones junk can become a treasure when you have to pay for it.
With that said, you shouldn't have started the job if the work space not ready. When you looked at the job you should have indicated in your contract that work area should be cleared of all "junk" and that you not responsible for any damage to items left behind, etc.
Since you went ahead with your work without asking GC to move thing out of your way, you should have moved what needs to be moved or covered what needs to be covered it would make your job much easier and nobody would ***** about it.
With that said, you shouldn't have started the job if the work space not ready. When you looked at the job you should have indicated in your contract that work area should be cleared of all "junk" and that you not responsible for any damage to items left behind, etc.
Since you went ahead with your work without asking GC to move thing out of your way, you should have moved what needs to be moved or covered what needs to be covered it would make your job much easier and nobody would ***** about it.
You looked before you bid, right? I know my guys would have wanted to know who was moving the junk to allow them access or there would have been an agreement with someone who was responsible. As a GC, the plumber pays for this one. Especially if there was a bid. Tarping, moving, protecting is part of the process.
I am thankful I don't do remodels.
I am thankful I don't do remodels.
The GC should have been on the ball enough to foresee this problem and go over it with you before you started. However, if he didn't, you should have brought to his attention exactly what was going to happen and got him to sign off on it.
It really fries me when a sub does something that common sense would say is going to be an issue without bringing it up to me.
I don't see why you wouldn't have grabbed the GC and said "look at all this crap down here. I'm going to make a mess, and some of this stuff will get wet. What do you want me to do?" Then the monkey's off your back. Sure, you can weasel out of it by telling the GC he's ultimately responsible, but if I was him I wouldn't be too happy with you about it.
Likely he either never even considered the possibility of water being an issue, or he just assumed you would take care of it.
I say this one's on you.
It really fries me when a sub does something that common sense would say is going to be an issue without bringing it up to me.
I don't see why you wouldn't have grabbed the GC and said "look at all this crap down here. I'm going to make a mess, and some of this stuff will get wet. What do you want me to do?" Then the monkey's off your back. Sure, you can weasel out of it by telling the GC he's ultimately responsible, but if I was him I wouldn't be too happy with you about it.
Likely he either never even considered the possibility of water being an issue, or he just assumed you would take care of it.
I say this one's on you.
I understand that sometimes you feel powerless in a situation and you may not know what to do about it. But just count this one as a learning opportunity.
Attachments
How is it not your job to protect things and clean up after yourself?
This one's on you kid, you are wrong you screwed up.
I don't understand the mentality where contractors don't think it's their jobs to protect things or clean up after themselves.
This one's on you kid, you are wrong you screwed up.
I don't understand the mentality where contractors don't think it's their jobs to protect things or clean up after themselves.
i was shocked when i arrived and nothing was moved..... i assumed things that maybe i shouldnt have
i didnt have preping the house in my bid and didnt discuss it much with the builder...im just used to it being handled
we could have pulled off the job i guess....but the builder was hyper to get it going....a delay for 4 days would have also been a problem....
i dont think its my responsibility to prep the house or prepare the homeowner...thats the job of the GC....otherwise why is he there? (he didnt show up until 10am and we were there at 7am)....he should have been there when we started.....
sorry guys...im putting the blame on the GC no matter what you guys say
is it my fault for not having it in my contract? maybe....i do remodels all the time with GC's.....they always have tarps/ram board down on the floors and plastic up around the work area.....ive never had to do that....not ever....preping a jobsite is not the plumbers job, not the electricians job, not the hvac's job.....its the GC or the demo guy he hires
i didnt have preping the house in my bid and didnt discuss it much with the builder...im just used to it being handled
we could have pulled off the job i guess....but the builder was hyper to get it going....a delay for 4 days would have also been a problem....
i dont think its my responsibility to prep the house or prepare the homeowner...thats the job of the GC....otherwise why is he there? (he didnt show up until 10am and we were there at 7am)....he should have been there when we started.....
sorry guys...im putting the blame on the GC no matter what you guys say
is it my fault for not having it in my contract? maybe....i do remodels all the time with GC's.....they always have tarps/ram board down on the floors and plastic up around the work area.....ive never had to do that....not ever....preping a jobsite is not the plumbers job, not the electricians job, not the hvac's job.....its the GC or the demo guy he hires
Wtf ever happened to personal responsibility.
we did clean up----but you cant cleanup a wet floor all over the basement
boxes are on the floor and its water....is it my responsibility to spend 3 days moving their belongings? plastic would have helped, but those boxes would still be wet/damp
its such an obvious thing......anyone ever seen a whole house repipe that didnt have water on the floor?....this isnt a small 1.5 bath ranch...its a huge/complex house....pipes are up/down, around/over/under......everywhere....there is no way to get the water out of the pipes all together before you cut them
probably 200+ cuts were done......6,000 sq of basement...divided into 6-7 rooms/spaces
boxes are on the floor and its water....is it my responsibility to spend 3 days moving their belongings? plastic would have helped, but those boxes would still be wet/damp
its such an obvious thing......anyone ever seen a whole house repipe that didnt have water on the floor?....this isnt a small 1.5 bath ranch...its a huge/complex house....pipes are up/down, around/over/under......everywhere....there is no way to get the water out of the pipes all together before you cut them
probably 200+ cuts were done......6,000 sq of basement...divided into 6-7 rooms/spaces
its just bad planning....im blaming the gc for 0 planning...you guys want to blame me for not doing the GC's job
Then you talk to the gc before cutting a pipe. You never damage client's property or leave a mess.
so a sub should pay $10,000 for a moving company and storage units when he finds things not done?
its just bad planning....im blaming the gc for 0 planning...you guys want to blame me for not doing the GC's job
is it the GC's job to plan things.....its not a small/minor thing here....its major....its something anyone could see coming....you look up/see pipes full of water.....how will they come down? whats under them? whats inside those pipes?.......it wasnt discussed in detail or in my contract because its just common sense stuff......if i discussed every detail or every job(the obvious stuff) id never get off the phone with the GC...
bottom line---the gc should have been there at 7am with me........the whole issue would have been handled by 7:01......anyone argue that?
its just bad planning....im blaming the gc for 0 planning...you guys want to blame me for not doing the GC's job
is it the GC's job to plan things.....its not a small/minor thing here....its major....its something anyone could see coming....you look up/see pipes full of water.....how will they come down? whats under them? whats inside those pipes?.......it wasnt discussed in detail or in my contract because its just common sense stuff......if i discussed every detail or every job(the obvious stuff) id never get off the phone with the GC...
bottom line---the gc should have been there at 7am with me........the whole issue would have been handled by 7:01......anyone argue that?
True on some level......i agree (somewhat)
its not like gallons of water ran on the homeowners stuff....
were talking drops of water.....maybe a dixie cup full at every joint cut
its not like gallons of water ran on the homeowners stuff....
were talking drops of water.....maybe a dixie cup full at every joint cut
It's not, if you aren't capable of doing a clean job it's your job to tell them that.
Not saying it's your job to be the GC. However, common sense should tell you that the owners might not want these boxes and junk to get wet. You should have at least mentioned it to the GC or the owner.
It'd be like a tile guy replacing a tub surround and scratching up the tub while doing it, then saying "what? If you wanted the tub protected you should have taped cardboard over it or something."
Or like an electrician dragging a stove across a wood floor and scratching it, then blaming the GC for not anticipating the need to protect the floor and doing it, then saying "I figured you knew the floor would get scratched, you should have covered it. Not my problem".
Those may be extreme examples, but what you did is really no different.
You asked for opinions, and I'm giving you mine. You don't have to like it or agree with it.
But when ten responses all say basically the same thing.......
It'd be like a tile guy replacing a tub surround and scratching up the tub while doing it, then saying "what? If you wanted the tub protected you should have taped cardboard over it or something."
Or like an electrician dragging a stove across a wood floor and scratching it, then blaming the GC for not anticipating the need to protect the floor and doing it, then saying "I figured you knew the floor would get scratched, you should have covered it. Not my problem".
Those may be extreme examples, but what you did is really no different.
You asked for opinions, and I'm giving you mine. You don't have to like it or agree with it.
But when ten responses all say basically the same thing.......
huggytree said:
the difference is it takes 1 minute to cover a tub....which anyone would include in their bid..it takes 3 days to move their belongings or 3-4 hours to cover all their stuff in plastic (and then it would still get wet on the floor)
i agree with your above comment, but it is not the same---the scope is as different as you can get
i should have contacted the GC....i agree with that!
i agree with your above comment, but it is not the same---the scope is as different as you can get
i should have contacted the GC....i agree with that!
My houses and projects look like a dexter kill room.
I don't think anyone would think it was reasonable for you to do all the covering/moving, and for sure not for free. But you're putting yourself in a bad situation when you decide on your own that the owners stuff will be ok with a little water on it because it's going to be too much trouble and take too long to move/cover it.
And since you agree that you should have contacted the GC about it, but you admittedly DID NOT, that leaves only one conclusion.
As I said, you can blame it on the GC if you want, and he is ultimately responsible.
If the GC decides to withhold part of your payment from you to cover any damages you caused to the owners property, you absolutely have no leg to stand on in demanding full payment.
And since you agree that you should have contacted the GC about it, but you admittedly DID NOT, that leaves only one conclusion.
As I said, you can blame it on the GC if you want, and he is ultimately responsible.
If the GC decides to withhold part of your payment from you to cover any damages you caused to the owners property, you absolutely have no leg to stand on in demanding full payment.
huggytree said:
after 10 responses i finally agree 100% with 1
this is why i like to throw things out there...to get opinions
this is a problem builder and very unorganized.....i just figured --oh well.....i really dont think anything expensive got damaged.......if anything got damaged at all....they probably just didnt like the water on the floor...
i should have called the builder/explained things to the homeowner and walked off the job until it was corrected.
the builder would have been furious as he has a schedule thats figured out down to the day and i wouldnt have been able to get back there for 4 days....my schedule is full 2 weeks out right now, so losing 1 day = a week or so setback for this project.
this is why i just worked with what i had...the builder saw by 10am when he showed up what we were doing...he saw the mechanical room floor wet...he saw some of the rooms wet.....
we cleaned up all the rust stains/splash marks...when we left it was just a wet floor
im urged to stop work on the job...i may depending on the homeowner on Monday.....all my fixtures are on site...ill just give them away at my cost (no markup)...charge them for 8 hours labor and parts....and walk away.......let the job sit for 3 weeks until another plumber can fit them into the schedule.....i have a feeling by how the homeowner doesnt seem to be happy with any sub on the job so far that this is headed towards the GC getting fired.......i see it once a year or so....
this is why i like to throw things out there...to get opinions
this is a problem builder and very unorganized.....i just figured --oh well.....i really dont think anything expensive got damaged.......if anything got damaged at all....they probably just didnt like the water on the floor...
i should have called the builder/explained things to the homeowner and walked off the job until it was corrected.
the builder would have been furious as he has a schedule thats figured out down to the day and i wouldnt have been able to get back there for 4 days....my schedule is full 2 weeks out right now, so losing 1 day = a week or so setback for this project.
this is why i just worked with what i had...the builder saw by 10am when he showed up what we were doing...he saw the mechanical room floor wet...he saw some of the rooms wet.....
we cleaned up all the rust stains/splash marks...when we left it was just a wet floor
im urged to stop work on the job...i may depending on the homeowner on Monday.....all my fixtures are on site...ill just give them away at my cost (no markup)...charge them for 8 hours labor and parts....and walk away.......let the job sit for 3 weeks until another plumber can fit them into the schedule.....i have a feeling by how the homeowner doesnt seem to be happy with any sub on the job so far that this is headed towards the GC getting fired.......i see it once a year or so....
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