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Issues here besides roofing are increased homeowners insurance because many fire depts will not send anyone on the roof to ventilate which equals more fire damage. Some roofs I dont even see where you could ventilate it.
Also in NJ the best you can get is zero balance, you can't get paid from the power company. I know some one who consistently has a zero balance and wonders how much the power company is making off of him. He thinks he has way too many panels for the amount he uses.
 

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Issues here besides roofing are increased homeowners insurance because many fire depts will not send anyone on the roof to ventilate which equals more fire damage. Some roofs I dont even see where you could ventilate it.
Also in NJ the best you can get is zero balance, you can't get paid from the power company. I know some one who consistently has a zero balance and wonders how much the power company is making off of him. He thinks he has way too many panels for the amount he uses.
About 1 in 10 homes in my older neighborhood have been retrofitted with solar. Everyone has a disconnect mounted on the outside of the house for service or fire department use. None of the homes have more than a quarter of the roof taken up by the panels so venting shouldn’t be a problem. No insurance bump that I can remember. If your friend thinks he has to many panels I’ll take some off his hands.


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No insurance bump that I can remember.
So if you have a hail storm and the panels are damaged, who pays for that? If a tree falls on the house and damages the panels who pays for that? If you have a fire and they get damaged, who pays for that? etc. etc.
 

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So if you have a hail storm and the panels are damaged, who pays for that? If a tree falls on the house and damages the panels who pays for that? If you have a fire and they get damaged, who pays for that? etc. etc.
I do have insurance on the house that cover the panels. Just like home owners insurance covers pool equipment your backyard gazebo etc. I live in the desert so no trees to drop on panels. Currently Panasonic panels like I have are $375 each. From the internet so take with a grain of salt, panels withstand 25 mm of hail at 50 mph. I get it, panels are not for everyone. They work for me. Have a plug in hybrid car that wife drives and that we take on trips. Gets plugged in every night so no gas is used unless we go on a trip. Another bill lessened. Wish a manufacturer would come out with a plug in pickup, then the only time we would have to fill up would be on trips. More knowledgeable people have written about the economic impact of renewable energy and I’m sure you can find many better sources than me. If I really get wild in a few years I might get a Tesla power wall or equivalent for backup power.


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About 1 in 10 homes in my older neighborhood have been retrofitted with solar. Everyone has a disconnect mounted on the outside of the house for service or fire department use. None of the homes have more than a quarter of the roof taken up by the panels so venting shouldn’t be a problem. No insurance bump that I can remember. If your friend thinks he has to many panels I’ll take some off his hands.


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Note here 90% coverage
no desert here
 

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At the societal level, it very much makes sense to use renewable sources. And we're heading that way. The devil is in the details, i.e. when, where and how is the most efficient/economical way to do it. My point is simply that the poco can generate, distribute and manage power much more efficiently than a million houses.
Same for vehicles. We had electric cars more than 100 years ago.
People built their own for a long tiime. GM had the EV1 in the 90s. It just took us until now to have the technology to do it economically on a large scale. And we're not quite there yet. Tesla is not profitable if you don't count the carbon credits they sell to other makers.
I appreciate the early adopters, they help create the demand and acceptance of new technology. I appreciate it even more when they do it at their own expense, i.e. no subsidies.
 

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Out here there's all sorts of rules on where the panels can go on the roof to allow for fire access which restricts the area that is left, they are also now mandated for all new construction and there's talk of setting up the interfaces so the panels can be fed to the grid while not feeding the house in the all too likely events of brownouts, state thinks the aggregate solar pv feed will be like having extra power plants to use. Of course if that happens you'll be roasting your a$$ instead of running your AC. In any case it's a bonanza for the solar industry, too bad all of those panels aren't mandated to be built in the USA or at least north America instead of enriching China in so many cases.

It makes sense to decentralize power generation where possible, makes the area less susceptible to major disruptions such as what almost happened in San Jose when a major substation's transformers were attacked with AK47s in a test by terrorists to take down major components for the grid but there's a lot to be said for hardening the grid and investing in clean large power plants using our abundance of natural gas.
 

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Also in NJ the best you can get is zero balance,
I would certainly go for a zero electric bill every month.

. I know some one who consistently has a zero balance and wonders how much the power company is making off of him.
Typical American greed ... Whats in it for me? Not thinking about the big picture.

My daughter bought a house, it already had an array installed by the previous so she is getting the benefits essentially for free. Yes the cost was somehow rolled into the sale price, but so was the cost of landscaping and window blinds, etc.
 

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I would certainly go for a zero electric bill every month.


Typical American greed ... Whats in it for me? Not thinking about the big picture.

My daughter bought a house, it already had an array installed by the previous so she is getting the benefits essentially for free. Yes the cost was somehow rolled into the sale price, but so was the cost of landscaping and window blinds, etc.
He did not get them for free, I believe he paid $30-40k for them. His concern was that they were deliberately oversized for his application and he could have paid less for his same end result.
 

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Here is an interesting way to look at the question of whether it makes sense economically for the average homeowner, with no subsidies. Suggested by a client with some financial savvy:

So you want to sell me a solar system and it will make me money, eh? Great. I tell you what. I'm paying $2,000/yr for power now. I'll let you install all the equipment you want at my house. And I'll pay you the same $2,000/yr. You can make the profit. No you can't tie into the grid. You need to stand on your own. Do we have a deal?
:)
 

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Suggested by a client with some financial savvy:

So you want to sell me a solar system and it will make me money, eh? Great. I tell you what. I'm paying $2,000/yr for power now. I'll let you install all the equipment you want at my house. And I'll pay you the same $2,000/yr. You can make the profit. No you can't tie into the grid. You need to stand on your own. Do we have a deal?
:)
Ill have to remember this quote lol

I am all for solar but againts gooberment intervention. Imo it should be the little guy that makes the breakthrough discovery on it.

The batteries are getting to be much better and less costly. When they get to be at certain point where it is much more feasible to be totally off grid is when it will make much more sense. (Think of the evolution of cordless tools over the past 10-20 years)
 

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Here is an interesting way to look at the question of whether it makes sense economically for the average homeowner, with no subsidies. Suggested by a client with some financial savvy:

So you want to sell me a solar system and it will make me money, eh? Great. I tell you what. I'm paying $2,000/yr for power now. I'll let you install all the equipment you want at my house. And I'll pay you the same $2,000/yr. You can make the profit. No you can't tie into the grid. You need to stand on your own. Do we have a deal?
:)
So what part of 5 year payback don’t you understand in my case. After 5 years I’m making my own electricity for free if you want to think of it that way. ( I paid in full upfront). So power for the next 20 years with no or almost no bills. And the reality is there are subsidies. I guess if you want to get on your principles and not take them the pay back is a couple more years. Have the ability to add battery storage in the future and go off grid if that would ever be needed. Also you bring up the power company losing money and going out of business if they don’t have customers. I don’t see that happening. They might have to shrink the size of their business. They are building giant fields in my area of solar panels. So why don’t we just have our own. No transmission loss. I can crank up the AC without putting a additional power burden on the grid for day light hours. Lets jump to electric vehicles, will they solve all the transportation needs, no. Have they advanced since the GM ev program of the 90s, by leaps. Most automakers are planning on having the majority of their offerings by 2030 be electric . Enough ranting, I just don’t get it when someone is against something that I think is a improvement on the old way of doing things. With the prices of solar now and hopefully continue to get cheaper I look at it as a no lose situation. Sorry if I offend anyone. Not really
 

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So what part of 5 year payback don’t you understand in my case. ... Sorry if I offend anyone. Not really
Hahaha, sounds to me like you're the one who felt offended. My post had nothing to do with you.

So why don’t we just have our own.
Can't speak for "we" but I can tell you why I don't:

1. I don't want to be in the energy generation business. I like my day job. I don't want to invest in assets in a field I'm not an expert in or have to manage those assets. Same reason I hire subs and I don't make my own beer and I don't grow my own tomatoes. I like to use my capital and time on things I like and I'm good at.
2. I cannot show a positive ROI (return on investment) with a rigurous analysis, even with subsidies.
3. The poco is converting and will be all renewable at some point in the not too distant future. They can do it cheaper and, more importantly, with less carbon footprint and environmental damage than a bunch of contractors with a million different schemes for a million different roofs. Just one example: What's the environmental hit from shipping a handful of panels at a time to a million houses vs. shipping full semi loads to a solar farm? Everything related to installation, maintenance, repair, replacement, etc. is vastly more efficient and less damaging to the environment when done on a large scale vs. tiny scale.
4. My solar installation does not replace poco capacity. Each poco is different, but in general, if let's say 1% of households install solar in a year, the poco can't just take 1% of capacity off line. Long discussion of how generation works. If/when we get to a point where a large % of houses have generating AND STORAGE capacity AND the poco is able to give you or take from you electricity at THEIR discretion, that will change. But for right now, they are forced to give or take electricity from you at YOUR discretion. That makes managing the grid increasingly difficult, as the utility cannot predict when people are going to dump (or not) power into the grid.
 

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I do have insurance on the house that cover the panels. Just like home owners insurance covers pool equipment your backyard gazebo etc. I live in the desert so no trees to drop on panels. Currently Panasonic panels like I have are $375 each. From the internet so take with a grain of salt, panels withstand 25 mm of hail at 50 mph. I get it, panels are not for everyone. They work for me. Have a plug in hybrid car that wife drives and that we take on trips. Gets plugged in every night so no gas is used unless we go on a trip. Another bill lessened. Wish a manufacturer would come out with a plug in pickup, then the only time we would have to fill up would be on trips. More knowledgeable people have written about the economic impact of renewable energy and I’m sure you can find many better sources than me. If I really get wild in a few years I might get a Tesla power wall or equivalent for backup power.


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Since you mentioned lowering bills, have you run the total numbers on your power set-up, like cost, break-even, etc?
Personally, I think renewables are good and getting better, but I also like the idea of leaving the generation to the pros. Let them maintain and upgrade, etc. And even if they do use some fossil-derived energy, it's still more efficient to burn it there, and distribute electricity everywhere, vs. driving tanker trucks to fueling stations every other day. (But we're still a long way from that.)

Side note: Tesla is now a leader in selling large battery energy storage systems. Their capability already gives them a competitive advantage in bidding projects.
 

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Since you mentioned lowering bills, have you run the total numbers on your power set-up, like cost, break-even, etc?
Personally, I think renewables are good and getting better, but I also like the idea of leaving the generation to the pros. Let them maintain and upgrade, etc. And even if they do use some fossil-derived energy, it's still more efficient to burn it there, and distribute electricity everywhere, vs. driving tanker trucks to fueling stations every other day. (But we're still a long way from that.)

Side note: Tesla is now a leader in selling large battery energy storage systems. Their capability already gives them a competitive advantage in bidding projects.

My system has out performed the estimated system, the temp co note at the bottom is showing the Panasonic panels are better than others that were available in high heat conditions that are being more common.


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Thanks for posting that. If it lasts for 25 years the amortization is $569/yr. So your annual return is $1,593 - $569 = $1,024. Your ROI is 1,024/14,232 = 7.2% per year. That's before the cost of insurance, maintenance and repair. That's very similar to numbers we've run.
 

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Here's the catch guys - doesn't matter if you like or not, they will be part of the codes probably by 2027 / 30. Expect to see mandatory EV chargers by 2024 / 27
AS for my take - they can work almost anywhere - you of course get better / faster payback in the desert area than say Alaska. The biggest misconception most people have is if the grid goes down, I will be good - uh no, not without batteries. Ahh I will buy 1 Powerwall... well no you need like 3 of them if you want to run your AC or other items which huge initial draws...
Squirrels - have an issue with them? then you essentially have to fence off under the panels BUT that also increases your maintenance as you need to clean up those leaves especially before it rains / snows
Roof leaks - there are some really good mounting options, but does the customer want to pay more for that & as mentioned most failures of the roof in general & in this case racking is installer
With that said - No, no solar on my place yet, but if & when I would replace my shingle roof with standing seam as I am still not a fan of penetrations like many here
 

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I don't think the price is competitive enough to purchase a system. With a purchase comes all the maintenance between the panels, roof, monitoring, etc.

I decided to lease. It's a 20 year contract. During that time, if there's roof damage from a storm or from the panels, the company comes out to R&R the panels for roof repair or fixes the issue. Nothing out of my pocket.
If the system ever falls below 94% efficiency, they come out and repair/replace.
I have the full amount of panels allowed by our POCO (31). All conduit is run in my attic with a total of 3 roof penetrations.
I had my roof reshingled 1 month prior to solar install. I removed all roof vents and upgraded to ridge vent. I had them replace anything above the sheeting so everything was 100% new at panel install. Shouldn't need to touch it.
Even in February (in Illinois), my system was producing over 100% of my monthly usage. Any overage gets credited for future months where I might go over usage compared to solar produced. Every year in April, we square up and I'll get a credit if I used less than produced.
Local code (for FD) has a disconnect on the outside. I made it look all nice too. Well, I supplied everything inside to the LBs. Their people did the rest. A bit sloppy but better than having them screw all that to the siding. (pic below)
At the end of 20 years, they come out to remove system & patch any holes.

I looked at it this way, in 20 years I'll either be dead & not my problem or the existing panels with be technologically extinct. IN 20 years the panels will be pretty much useless anyway. I'm locked in a lease of $90/month + my POCO service fee ($19). I know damn well the infrastructure of the grid is terrible. No matter how much rates increase over 20 years, I'm not affected. I only pay $90 + $19/month (unless I go over with usage and don't have any credits)

Cons. Yes, there are some. I now have to shovel my roof in the winter LOL.
If I sell, I either have to pay off the lease or the new owners must take over the remainder of it.
It's not the best aethstetic. Not having visible conduit helps.

Overall, the lease definitely works for me. My POCO bill previously has been $150/$200 monthly with some summer months pushing over $300. I have immediate ROI there. Illinois subsidies paid 100% for the installation. Aside from a few hundred out of my pocket to upgrade everything to code inside and some conduit that I ran to make sure everything was invisible outside, the cost was covered.

I don't have to maintain the system, I'm doing my environmental part aand I'm saving money. It was a win for me.

510781
 

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Thanks for posting that. If it lasts for 25 years the amortization is $569/yr. So your annual return is $1,593 - $569 = $1,024. Your ROI is 1,024/14,232 = 7.2% per year. That's before the cost of insurance, maintenance and repair. That's very similar to numbers we've run.
What would you consider to be an acceptable ROI before you would consider recommending solar? Not being snarky, really would like to know.


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