Don't let someone else dictate your number.... Each job is it's own beast and you should have the opportunity to bid off of blueprints..... Typically when doing trim on production homes we had a set price for the basic house and extras included large deviations like curved stairs handrails, finished basements etc... Our pricing was based more on how many days it would take to be on site, not each opening.

 

what do you consider an extra

In the production world it can be really shaky. I can tell you right now very few of them are going to want to pay for any extras. Your going to get a lot of well Im giving you the work so could you go ahead and do this it wont take 5 minute types. However each area is different. Im in south Tx. and still do trim for an old school 500k plus builder Ive known for years. We do cabs, doors & base for a set price along with shelving. If anything changes its an extra. Windows, crown, handrail are priced seperate depending what they want. Any added trim, garage shelving, decking in attic over garage, workbench ,2nd attic access are extras. There can be a fine line there so be careful. Hope that helps.

 

An extra for me are any changes or materials that are not in the written signed contract.I'm a simple man.

 

Yeah but with production houses they will want to issue a contract with a work scope like - install all doors, cabinets, moldings, hardware etc..... But then when the homeowner wants to change to a stepped crown, or add more doors than the last house you will have to argue to get paid for the "extra".... or they will tell you they will pay for the extra and then when the check is cut it is for the base amount and want your signed waiver before they give it to you. Then you have to decide to wait for a corrected check or take the money...

 

In my area all work is by sq ft. I list everything I include in my bid like 3 pc crown in foyer,dinning,and living room. 2 pc in kitchen and master. 1 pc everywhere else. All shelving over 12 sheets is extra per sheet needed. Window/door pediments are extra. Certain door knobs are extra because of frustration. I charge an extra $100 - $200 for the garage. Stairs are completely seperate and are charged at a per step price.

Basically you need to just start trimming houses and figure what your market will bear. Best of luck ! Being your own boss can really suck sometimes.

 

All the prints I review never have a trim schedule. Therefore I give a basic trim package at a per sq ft price. I then list all extras and their individual price. Extras are trim around bull nose corners, making cased openings on the job ( had that one snucked in on me a few times ), extra cost past 12 sheets of plywood, window pediments/ encroachments, 2 piece baseboard, shutters,and etc.

I've had to refine my price list over the years. When you keep getting underbid you must be higher than the market will allow. Don't be afraid to follow up a bid. I have found what my competion charged this way. Walk onto the site when your sure the trim is about done and see if their work compares. If it is subpar then sell yourself on better quality.

Eventually your reputation will catch up to your prices. By listing extras the homeowners get to decide what they want, and you don't get shorted.

^Two good posts. Make sure your agreement/contract refers to the price lists by number and date (because you will be raising your prices), and that you have the general's signature on the price lists, too.

If a general starts adding lots of extras, it may be because your price is too low.

 

Thanks for the responses! From what I gather about the finishers that i will be competeing with is allot MUST be extra or there is no way they could make a dime on there base ft price, especially if they are trying to keep profit margins. Sounds like maybe I should not even mention a base sq ft price and just give him a number for the specific house. That might solve the gray "extra" area and hopefully will create a formula for quoting larger, less standard homes.

 

The trim sub market around here has always been a mystery for the very reason you're talking about...there is no way I could make any money at the "going rate" sq ft prices that are thrown around...or at least I don't think I can.

Either guys are working for wages or they play money games I don't know.

 

Where do you draw the line?
thanks- cp

Look the job over. Forget what the buyer wants to pay. Figure how long it will take to do the work. Add profit and overhead. Give the buyer the number. If he balks, then count your blessings and walk! There will always be bottom feeders. You need to set the price for your market. If that doesn't allow for O/P then don't become the next 'bottom feeder'. Do yourself and your industry a favor and force a fair price to be paid for your services. And if you were wondering, a fair price is what YOU need to be paid for services rendered, not what the buyer wants to pay.

This advise comes from an 'old fart', been in the business for 35+ years.

 

They'll never tell you you aren't charging enough.

 

Production finish, piece work/sq foot what ever, you knew what was included in the job before you started, there were no extras.

What is this nonsense that you are am hourly sub....

You are am employee that is getting screwed....

 

We have guys who have been subs to us for a long time that will work hourly for us. They carry their own WC and Liability and charge a hourly rate above wages....They bid on bigger work, but on smaller work they just send me a bill based on their hourly rate x hours worked. They like it because they don't have waste time driving to look at a small little job, and it allows them good filler work when they don't have other jobs lined up...Depending on which guys the hourly rate is 50-75 an hour.

But I know usually the case is someone 1099 employees who make 20-30 bucks an hour, and I am truly against that.

 

I'm trimming a house right now. The homeowner could only meet me for about 20 minutes to go over the house so I could bid it. I knew by our short conversation that there were alot of custom things that were going to pop up. Glad I did the bid the way I did because she neglected to mention the 2 swinging doors, the double barn style door,the huge amount of shoe boxes in her closet,and the 10 pediments I have to make. This is only day 3 !


There will be alot of extras.

 

If it's not on the original set of plans you bid off from or in the contract it's an extra.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence.I am primarily a framer.i have gotten bids from subs that say all framing. I know from years of being a sub, an open ended statement like that can get you shafted. Framer always puts in backers, always boxes mechanical, always installs stairs ect ect. Make your estimate very specific as to what is included and what isn't. Anythings not listed is an extra.

 

Hell, it was 9.50 in the very beginning

 

All the prints I review never have a trim schedule. Therefore I give a basic trim package at a per sq ft price. I then list all extras and their individual price. Extras are trim around bull nose corners, making cased openings on the job ( had that one snucked in on me a few times ), extra cost past 12 sheets of plywood, window pediments/ encroachments, 2 piece baseboard, shutters,and etc.

I've had to refine my price list over the years. When you keep getting underbid you must be higher than the market will allow. Don't be afraid to follow up a bid. I have found what my competion charged this way. Walk onto the site when your sure the trim is about done and see if their work compares. If it is subpar then sell yourself on better quality.

Eventually your reputation will catch up to your prices. By listing extras the homeowners get to decide what they want, and you don't get shorted.

 

Exactly the road I traveled with my sub rate roofing.

Pay close attention to ALL the numbers, labor, overhead, etc. This creates good habits from day one and you can see where it all goes. One of the most important things i learned here is that you need not make the mistake of assuming that the cash flow you will generate means you are making money.

I now get paid to install what i used to get to take off and install, when accepting other contractors' paysheets. And i keep some copies of my paysheet on me so any new contractors who i meet, or stop and talk to me can have an instant copy of my rates.

 

what do you consider an extra

As long as you let the general predict an hourly rate your not a sub and your only paying for nails, lunch and gas. When they approach you with " what is your hourly rate or how much you charge per hour" tell them let me turn that question around on you. That usually drops their jaw to the ground because its a question they cant answer. Getting away from box builders is the only way you will make money unless your a labor broker and have the crews to compete with bottom prices. Thats a lot of headaches/stress and no real money. On boxes you have to get in and out and do crap work which is fine by them because most dont know any better or have time to walk a bunch of houses. Concentrate on custom homes and never be afraid to walk if they start the freebie crap. Not trying to tell you how to run your gig just the facts.

 

My goal is to do custom homes, I enjoy being fussy and making everything look the best possible, and I believe that's were the money is. Im not especially fond of doing the same stuff day in and day out and I know specs builders only care about dollars. But quoting & estimating will be new so I figure better to work out the kinks in my contracting on a $4000 job instead of a $20000 one. Makes me regret not having a more detailed past work log... I can estimate accurately on specs, but it would be nice to make a spreadsheet of the main task and make a quoting formula to compare with my gut feel. Ive also done allot of high end work and a more accurate past log would be a good reference. maybe im being paranoid... just don't want to get burned, or when I inevitably do id like to minimize it PS thanks for all the feed back

 

Well it's better late than never. If you keep detailed notes from this day forward you will be better off than a lot of your competition. There will be jobs that you underbid, it happens to everyone, but learn from those and move on. You will only get better and more efficient at bidding and pricing.

 

CJP. After I got out from under my grandpas wing I did exactly what you've been doing as I was well versed in all phases. Its nice to not be doing only one trade all the time. I think it helped me a great deal both for my business and my sanity. After years of framing, trim, roofing etc I had to go back to doing punch/warranty work for a while because of an injury. Here in south Tx. a lot of the generals have a bad habit of paying out front holding 10, 20% or so and subs dont come back to finish and complete what they have been paid for. That was a good market for me because they could send me in to do patches, trim, frame punch, a back ordered window, hardware or whatever. So I know your market well. Try to stay away from the ones that want to corner you with any hourly rate. Its just not good business. You have got youth on your side and remember nothing happens overnight. Never count on another sub to tell you how much he is getting. Its a cut throat world out there. Finally there will be times when you have to chase your money and may not get it. It happens. Again never hesitate to walk if you have doubts and always ask other subs if the general pays on time. When a general slow pays or fails to pay you, tell everybody you see on every job and always kieep your ears open. You will get it down it takes time and some ups and downs. Good luck

 

Where are you located Kingcarpenter?

 

When I hear the words ''Oh! While your here !!! '' Anything that comes out of their mouth next is an extra charge .

 

Here in WNY I see lower end homes, 300K would be high end here. I have no problem doing your basic home by the sq. ft. I just had a meeting with a builder the other day, he asked me how much to trim a house. I told him I would do it for X$ a square ft. based on a single story ranch with 2 1/4 casing and 3 1/4" base, basic six panel pine doors,metal closet shelving, and basic cabinets. I explained that anything that he charges extra for I charge extra for.
A few examples wide trim, crown, railing systems, double doors, pocket doors, hardwood trim,anything I need a step ladder/ladder to do, laundry cabinets, 1 cabinet per bath, railing by the ft. counting post in my footage, any kind of extra molding, islands, and then I have a price list for most of these items. This works good for me and good for the contractor because he can figure out what I am going to charge [within reason] and I don't have to try to bid off of a framing blueprint.

First picture extras - light mold, molding between cabs, second row of cabs, cabinet extensions on uppers, crown,cutting cabs for microwave and oven, install MW and oven also did the tile.

second picture extras - 3' half wall with 5/4 cap, tapered post, wide trim,wainscotting and hardwood floor.

third picture extras - coffered ceiling, wide trim,fireplace mantel and stonework on the fireplace

yes this house was not my ordinary house and this is only a portion of the extras on this house. Extras is where I do real good.

 

I deleted my post. After posting I realized it wasn't answering your question.
I was getting off track.