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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I read a post the other day that went something like this;
"Is it done right everytime? Nope but what are you to do, not work at all? That might be great for some of you but i cant make it happen. So be it call me a hack or whatever you want but sometimes you can leave a job that might not be done to the perfect spec. As long as its safe and the homeowner understands it might not be a long term solution whats a person to do?"

Ok so that is an exact quote. Ya know I see work from lots of people on this site that is top notch. I am sure most of us have done work that we didn't like the end result. But to say it is acceptable on a Pro site I feel is wrong. When you say something like that then others might take it as "Oh they did it why can't I".

When I am at work and install something that the average Joe might not notice but a pro would, I often think "What kind of sh!t would I get if I posted a picture of that on CT?" Then I pull it out and do it right. We all do this almost everyday. But the difference between us and the hacks is that little voice that says " Dude that looks like piss. Yes it will take a little more time but the end result will be the best result."

So what I am saying is that yes sometimes peoples reply to threads are not in the best manner but I have said it before "THIS IS CONSTRUCTION YOU PU$$Y." But I do not think it is ok for the pros to hold back when it comes to other pros. Just one bad job for one customer and one Contractor (or handyman) could give countless others a bad name for the rest of that customers life. This is all my opinion.
 

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I read a post the other day that went something like this;
"Is it done right everytime? Nope but what are you to do, not work at all? That might be great for some of you but i cant make it happen. So be it call me a hack or whatever you want but sometimes you can leave a job that might not be done to the perfect spec. As long as its safe and the homeowner understands it might not be a long term solution whats a person to do?"

Ok so that is an exact quote. Ya know I see work from lots of people on this site that is top notch. I am sure most of us have done work that we didn't like the end result. But to say it is acceptable on a Pro site I feel is wrong. When you say something like that then others might take it as "Oh they did it why can't I".

When I am at work and install something that the average Joe might not notice but a pro would, I often think "What kind of sh!t would I get if I posted a picture of that on CT?" Then I pull it out and do it right. We all do this almost everyday. But the difference between us and the hacks is that little voice that says " Dude that looks like piss. Yes it will take a little more time but the end result will be the best result."

So what I am saying is that yes sometimes peoples reply to threads are not in the best manner but I have said it before "THIS IS CONSTRUCTION YOU PU$$Y." But I do not think it is ok for the pros to hold back when it comes to other pros. Just one bad job for one customer and one Contractor (or handyman) could give countless others a bad name for the rest of that customers life. This is all my opinion.
You are correct
But to what extent do we allow ourselves to pass judgment?

I was part of that bloodbath the quote came from.

I was personally “attacked” and I personally attacked.

After seeing some of the negativity that spewed off of my keyboard I WAS EMBARRESDED an ASHAMED!

I PM’d some I felt I offended ,people replied and we made peace.

YES we work in construction but would ANY of us print out some of the garbage we spew on here and repeat it in front of co workers, bosses, customers?

I admit that defending sub standard work DOES NOT help our industry.

But criticizing CONSTRUCTIVELY as the PROFESSIONLS we claim to be might go further in stopping sub-standard work then swearing, slandering and the such.

I thought this site was intended for the sharing of knowledge, products tools etc.

People of ALL skill levels are in our trades.

NO I AM NOT defending the obvious hacks.

NO MATTER how good you are SOMEONE’S better. How would you feel if when asking for advice you were called a hack?

The Pro’s on CT will not convince some people they’re wrong NO MATTER WHAT, but a PROFESSIONAL approach will help.

If you put in your professional opinion and it falls on deaf ears what are you accomplishing by spewing hate? Some people are just to hard headed and “prideful” to understand the concept of help.

I personally want to apologize for my APPAULING behavior in the threads concerning construction related topics.

I will try and save the arguing and the such to Off Topic and P&R where it belongs .
 

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Building to code is the minimum requirement, building beyond that is based on experience, personal taste and usually pride of craftsmanship.

Example

I have built decks to code and I have built decks that have far exceeded it.

I some times use a 2x6 and cap the railings with it, others get a routered edge that would make a wood smith smile with pride.

A customers price point dictates what you give them for the price they can afford.

Some Guys get lost in their egos, quest for perfection and every project has to be a work of art, but in reality budget is a limiting factor for most homeowners.

I have never built below code I always build to it and most times exceed it.

I leave every job knowing I gave them exactly what they paid for and usually more than they did.

I have done work on every level imaginable.

But I still will put in a 5k Deck and leave the homeowner and their kids sitting on it safely and happy with my final product as easily as I would build the 50k deck up town.

Should I only work above a certain price point?

should I do a job and loose profit to prove I am a perfectionist?

Should I not build for the guy who can only afford a 5k code compliant deck and only work for the one who can afford the 50k deck?
 

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Landscaping is different.

Nobody needs a water feature. It's a luxury. It's an artistic expression. If you can't build to a certain standard you should walk away. If a customer only has $25,000 to spend on a water feature you really need to ask what can be done for that. If you can't build something that's beautiful, natural looking, and an artistic expression then don't take the job.

It's the same thing with other landscaping projects. As an artist I have a vision of what the final result should be. I know what will look good. If the HO can't afford it then I redesign. Once it reaches a point where it's no longer stunning and dramatic due to budget concerns it's time to walk away from the project.

I'm sure everyone would like to own a Ferrari. The Ferrari dealer isn't gong to sell you an Enzo for Ford Focus money because that's all you have.

Other trades may be different.

That's why I do a lot of landscape maintenance. That brings in cash to support me between big projects. Often time I'll do a small part of a HO's property rather than the whole thing. For example if they want the front and backyard landscaped. If their budget is low I'll design something for the front yard that adds a lot of curb appeal but not design anything for the backyard. It's better to do one part of the property right than stretch a budget.
 

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You are correct
But to what extent do we allow ourselves to pass judgment?

I was part of that bloodbath the quote came from.

I was personally “attacked” and I personally attacked.

After seeing some of the negativity that spewed off of my keyboard I WAS EMBARRESDED an ASHAMED!

I PM’d some I felt I offended ,people replied and we made peace.

YES we work in construction but would ANY of us print out some of the garbage we spew on here and repeat it in front of co workers, bosses, customers?

I admit that defending sub standard work DOES NOT help our industry.

But criticizing CONSTRUCTIVELY as the PROFESSIONLS we claim to be might go further in stopping sub-standard work then swearing, slandering and the such.

I thought this site was intended for the sharing of knowledge, products tools etc.

People of ALL skill levels are in our trades.

NO I AM NOT defending the obvious hacks.

NO MATTER how good you are SOMEONE’S better. How would you feel if when asking for advice you were called a hack?

The Pro’s on CT will not convince some people they’re wrong NO MATTER WHAT, but a PROFESSIONAL approach will help.

If you put in your professional opinion and it falls on deaf ears what are you accomplishing by spewing hate? Some people are just to hard headed and “prideful” to understand the concept of help.

I personally want to apologize for my APPAULING behavior in the threads concerning construction related topics.

I will try and save the arguing and the such to Off Topic and P&R where it belongs .
I see what your saying and I understand...But when someone does something that is so very obviously wrong,after asking for advise,that can set some people off,right or wrong.
 

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Some of this is directed at me so all I will say is I build to perfection. Roll your eyes if you want. But I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm not building the great wall of China, I'm just remodeling bathrooms. I build them to perfection. It's easy for me to do, and that's what I do, that's the standard I have for myself and it's the goal each and every day.

Zero punchlist. Punch lists don't exist in my business model.

Customers don't set our quality bar, we do.

Customer expericence is centered on zero customer compromise. None, zip, nada. No excuses no nothing. Do what we say and that's it.

Call it what you will but those are the facts.

Don't like it? Ask yourself why? Too tough to do? Okay, so be it, that's you, not me. But that's my yard stick. My guys know it and don't have a problem with it. It's also a great sense of satisfaction to see my guys take on my code of quality. Nothing I like better then to see it in action without me having to say anything. That right there is the sh*t.

Don't like it, don't think it's true, tough sh*t. I don't really care. Think I'm an *******, think I have a big ego?

Well you're right. And I laugh all the way to the bank.

Think that's egotistical? Well you're missing the boat my friend. If you're not in this for the money then you should put your money where your mouth is and stop accepting payment for your work and do it for free. Till you do that I don't really care what you have to say.

I'm in business. If you don't understand any of the above, if it offends you maybe you should stop for a second and think about it and remove head from ass and understand you are in business. Things might change dramatically for you once you consider this is a business.

This is a business for me, not a continuation of 11th grade shop class cause I couldn't do anything else.

How you like me now?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What I am saying is
any job big or small do it right or not at all!
I am talking about doing your best no matter the size of the job. No not every job needs to be a work of art but every 5k job or 50k job needs 100% attention to every detail. If you are able to say without joking "HA HA cant see it from my house" then you are giving all who work hard in this industry a bad name.

Once again this is about coming to a pro site and being told
"Well thats not how it is done correctly but I know you need the money so go ahead and f***k it up some more." I for one do not condone sub-standard craftsmanship!
 

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Like I have stated before.In California you can have your license suspended or revoked for doing substandard work.
Does that mean if your paint job is not perfect or a tile is crooked you're in trouble with the CSLB?Of course not....
But some of the things I have seen talked about here would definitely qualify.
 

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Mike my comment was not directed at you.

A lot of us on here myself including have egos.

A CONTRACTOR MUST HAVE AN EGO TO SURVIVE IN THIS BUSINESS!!!

The difference for me is I service all spectrums on the pricing point. Low, middle and RICH.

I do so because I want to not because I have to.

I am lucky to have my name passed around and I will work for any economic level of customers that I choose to regardless of budget.

So how building to a clients budget is being interpreted as building below code or not to perfection and with a mile long punch list, that is not the case for me.

It is simply knowing what materials, what warranty and what level of perfection can be given to that job based on their price point it is that simple.
 

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What I am saying is
any job big or small do it right or not at all!
I am talking about doing your best no matter the size of the job. No not every job needs to be a work of art but every 5k job or 50k job needs 100% attention to every detail. If you are able to say without joking "HA HA cant see it from my house" then you are giving all who work hard in this industry a bad name.


Once again this is about coming to a pro site and being told
"Well thats not how it is done correctly but I know you need the money so go ahead and f***k it up some more." I for one do not condone sub-standard craftsmanship!

What does doing it right mean to you? I have seen pros here give some information that make me wince when I read it. Their intentions were good but the information was ill informed or wrong for the area the person lives in.

They were pro's and meant will but there information and suggestions were off base
 

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Some people drive Cadillacs, some Yugos. That means some people must build Cadillacs and some must build Yugos.

Sure, the guy building the Caddy is probably doing higher quality craftsmanship than the guy building the Yugo BUT, telling the Yugo client he can't have a car till he can afford a Caddy is arrogant.

If you don't build Caddy's fine, and if you don't build Yugo's fine. There is a place on this earth for both.

Live and let live.
 

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I don't think any of us do anything intentionally wrong. If you care enough to get on this site, after you've clocked out, you have a respect for your trade and and a desire to advance your skill set. Quite frankly, when I do post pictures of my work (can't do it yet) if nobody beats the hell out of me for my mistakes I'll be pissed. If everyone applauds my work, I'll develop a sense of complacency and if you can fool yourself into believing you're the BEST... well then you're totally wrong. The beauty of this site is that everyone tears into each other for the smallest imperfections and it betters you as a contractor or businessman. All hail CT.
 

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What does doing it right mean to you? I have seen pros here give some information that make me wince when I read it. Their intentions were good but the information was ill informed or wrong for the area the person lives in.

They were pro's and meant will but there information and suggestions were off base
That's a good point..Telling someone how to do something with out knowing their local codes is not the smartest thing to do....Snow loads,high wing areas, seismic and many other things make something that is OK in Cali a big fat no no someplace else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
What does doing it right mean to you? I have seen pros here give some information that make me wince when I read it. Their intentions were good but the information was ill informed or wrong for the area the person lives in.

They were pro's and meant will but there information and suggestions were off base
Doing it right to me means you have full faith in your work as far as code compliance, appearance, and longevity.
So that wood be the answer to a customer that has had installed material fail?
"Oh sorry. This guy on CT told me this is the way it is supposed to be done. So since I was misinformed my warranty is no good."
 

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So that wood be the answer to a customer that has had installed material fail?
"Oh sorry. This guy on CT told me this is the way it is supposed to be done. So since I was misinformed my warranty is no good."

MY BS DETECTOR IS SCREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have installed material fail all the time. That window with the broken seal between panes, the water heater with a failed gas valve, the shingles that failed prematurely, the .................

I'll bet you blame the hangars and tapers for the Chinese drywall failure too.

If you've never had a material failure, you're either very new or a liar.
 

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Mike

"I build to perfection zero punchlist"

So if I walked your job there are no errors or nothing that I would have done differently or better?

Your expertise and knowledge is based on your experience.

If my experience and knowledge was greater than yours then I could possibly pick your job apart?

Don't ever believe that your job is perfect, it never is.

It is above code and built to the best of your ability that's it.

I can find faults and defects or suggest better ways it could have been done.

Remodeling is a constant learning process. If you ever think you got it figure out, systemized or perfected you are full of ****e!!!
 

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MY BS DETECTOR IS SCREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have installed material fail all the time. That window with the broken seal between panes, the water heater with a failed gas valve, the shingles that failed prematurely, the .................

I'll bet you blame the hangars and tapers for the Chinese drywall failure too.

If you've never had a material failure, you're either very new or a liar.
I don't think that's what he meant thom...I think it has something to do when,oh I don't know,thiset that was used to seal a koi pond fails...:whistling
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
MY BS DETECTOR IS SCREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have installed material fail all the time. That window with the broken seal between panes, the water heater with a failed gas valve, the shingles that failed prematurely, the .................

I'll bet you blame the hangars and tapers for the Chinese drywall failure too.

If you've never had a material failure, you're either very new or a liar.
HA HA HA HA! Dude what the hell are you talking about right now? I never said I have never had material fail on me. I ...... don't.... nope don't see that anywhere. I am saying that could never be an excuse. You would still be responsible for what ever work you did no matter where your info came from.
 
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