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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How do you guys do your valleys when you shingle? I roof in Iowa and lace my shingle vs cutting them although most of the locals cut theres. Also what do you do for under the shingles? I just put weather guard down and nothing else because that is what my old boss would do. Do you guys use just flashing? Weather guard and flashing?
Thanks
 

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I've always weaved my valleys in. The cut in does look good but I would think that it wouldn't be as strong as the weave. Anyway thats how I was taught to do it back around '78 maybe '79.
 

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Although not necessary in our climate, I put down I/W first, then roll metal 20" wide. We install a cut valley. If this thread picks up, you'll have tons of people telling you why cut valleys are horrible, laced valleys seep water, the Tamko valley is or isn't the best, etc. The most important thing is that your work is holding up to or beyond industry standards and you aren't creating problems in or under your flashing details. Just because they don't leak, doesn't always mean they are working so some roofers mistakingly think what they are doing is proper when they are just contributing to a long, drawn out deterioration process.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the replys, the reason I have been laceing my valleys is for the same reason my old boss did. He had to replace several valleys other roofers did that were cut because as the ice and snow melts it would run up under the cut side and the roof would leak.
 

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A lot of guys lace them, it's okay to do unless you are using a thick shingle that binds up. I install mostly landmarks and it's suggested to cut those.

Lacing is fast though, you don't have to snap that line and come back to it.

I put down Ice and Water also, just a good idea in a valley if ya ask me!

If it's just a crooked or fubared valley, I'll put some coil stock on the break and run it down the valley.
 

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Thanks for the replys, the reason I have been laceing my valleys is for the same reason my old boss did. He had to replace several valleys other roofers did that were cut because as the ice and snow melts it would run up under the cut side and the roof would leak.

If that snow and ice is running up that far, under the cut side, it's probably going to be running up under the shingles anyway.
 

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Weaving lacing, what ever you want to call it doesn't work out so well when you have different pitches coming together either.

I always use I&W in the valleys and will bend and use aluminum if the customers budget will allow. You never know when your going to have some slew footed idiot step in the valley.

When cutting the valley, always use shears or precut and start in the valley and start an inch up from dead center of the valley
 

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Many years ago the only way we would do valleys would be 15lb felt, valley pan exposed, never had a problem that way, sometime along the way we began to close them, i/w shield, then cut/closed valley. G
 

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we use felt, metal, and I&W and then we turn a shingle sideways and run up the valley, so we don't have to cut, i like the looks of it, we also during the fall, offer for a small service call fee, we come out and take a leaf blower and blow the leaves out of all the valley's and off the roof, then during the winter, we have a snow removing shovel for the overhangs that can be done off the ground, i think it reaches 20'? can't remember....
 

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A properly shingled valley is woven, not cut (hacked). So installed, you need NOTHING under it. It’ll hold out the weather just fine, and has been doing so for the last 80 years. Press the shingles down tight to the crease before nailing and the valley can be walked on without cracking. Keep your nails and joints back a foot and it won’t leak.


Beware the advice of anyone who waterproofs their valleys BEFORE applying their shingles. They don’t know for sure if their shingles are actually holding back the rain. How can they?


You don’t need a roof under the roof if you know how to roof.
 

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A properly shingled valley is woven, not cut (hacked). So installed, you need NOTHING under it. It’ll hold out the weather just fine, and has been doing so for the last 80 years. Press the shingles down tight to the crease before nailing and the valley can be walked on without cracking. Keep your nails and joints back a foot and it won’t leak.


Beware the advice of anyone who waterproofs their valleys BEFORE applying their shingles. They don’t know for sure if their shingles are actually holding back the rain. How can they?


You don’t need a roof under the roof if you know how to roof.

I don't know where your from in NE,but code here is I&W in valleys,before shingles.
 

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36" ice shield stuck to the bare deck
roofing felt overlapping, cut back 6" from valley center
then 20" roll of tin, pressed down into a nice curve, not broken into a seam
row of shingles vertically up each side, about 8" apart
shingle and cut follwing the verticals

Overkill, but will last forever, never leak, and looks sharp.
 

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As I said in another post, I don't do many roofs, but it seems to me that for less than a buck a foot, ice and water shield in a valley would be cheap insurance.

I have been doing roofs for roughly 30/32 years for various contractors and now for myself (when I have to). To the best of my knowledge I have never had a leak even before the invention of I&W. I will not do a roof without the I&W.
 

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A properly shingled valley is woven, not cut (hacked). So installed, you need NOTHING under it. It’ll hold out the weather just fine, and has been doing so for the last 80 years. Press the shingles down tight to the crease before nailing and the valley can be walked on without cracking. Keep your nails and joints back a foot and it won’t leak.


Beware the advice of anyone who waterproofs their valleys BEFORE applying their shingles. They don’t know for sure if their shingles are actually holding back the rain. How can they?


You don’t need a roof under the roof if you know how to roof.

How does that work out for you with a 40 year arch and 5/12 roof with 8/12 or steeper dormers? Me thinks you may be just a tad bit full of poo. As I said for less than a buck a foot, why wouldn't I.
 

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roofbutcher
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With a newbie who has never seen different, I can understand. But you old timers should know better. You know full well how to weave solid armor that works. You are also well aware of the consequences gluing a house together has on the next guy and the resulting costs incurred.


We used to build roofs that were easy to repair and replace. Roof decks were lasting hundreds of years, but now it’s only twenty if "done right". It’s truly a sad day when good craftsmen turn hack.
 

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With a newbie who has never seen different, I can understand. But you old timers should know better. You know full well how to weave solid armor that works. You are also well aware of the consequences gluing a house together has on the next guy and the resulting costs incurred.


We used to build roofs that were easy to repair and replace. Roof decks were lasting hundreds of years, but now it’s only twenty if "done right". It’s truly a sad day when good craftsmen turn hack.

If you have a way to keep ice dams from doing damage,even when the proper ventilation is installed,why don't you share it with us.
Ice damage can be a lot more costly to repair 10 times,than replacing a little decking every 25-30 years.
What we're doing is the industry norm.
I might be an old fart,but I'm not a stubborn old fart.I'll make changes that seem pratical and economical.

BTW,
Not all I&W will have shingles sticking to it when they are removed.
 

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roofbutcher
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If you have a way to keep ice dams from doing damage,even when the proper ventilation is installed,why don't you share it with us.
Ice damage can be a lot more costly to repair 10 times,than replacing a little decking every 25-30 years.
What we're doing is the industry norm.
I might be an old fart,but I'm not a stubborn old fart.I'll make changes that seem pratical and economical.

BTW,
Not all I&W will have shingles sticking to it when they are removed.
Ice Dams! Finally we’re getting somewhere.


This topic was concerning valleys, ice dams are a whole ‘nother matter. But since Bitchathane has become the norm in valleys, maybe it’s relevant.


I said nothing condemning the use of ice guard as protection from ice. If so used, it WOULD be just a matter of replacing "a little" decking every 20ish years.


But it isn’t so used. It has spread all over the roof, even un-heated ones. Areas that were never a problem suddenly need "extra protection". Ironically, when water makes it past the armor, the ice belt often only moves the leak over a couple feet. This is because it’s glued to the deck instead of woven into the armor system as is the case with pitch changes, step flashing (when not wrapped), hips, ridges, and dormer valleys (when not woven).


What seems to have been forgotten is that an ice dam traps a pool of water behind it, which actually submerges the first couple of courses of shingles, thereby defeating the "shed" formula. Bitchathane was originally supposed to seal the nail holes on those first courses and thus stop the leaking.


It’s a hack solution because it addresses the symptom (the leak), but ignores the problem (the dam). However, right around that time, the actual dam was also addressed through improved ventilation/insulation. Problem is that we never learned the results, because we never stopped the Bitchathane.


Back to valleys.


The pool behind the ice dam forms perfectly level, even at the base of a valley. Shovel off a few and you’ll see. Therefore, given a 6-pitch, three feet of ice membrane will protect you against a 16 inch-high ice dam, even in the valleys. Sixteen inches of ice will raise bigger concerns than just a drip in the wall.
 
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