Been doing some research on waterproofing products. There are so many kinds, brands, applications it gets rather confusing. Kerdi Ditra, Laticrete, Dal, Mapei to name a few- There are roll ons, trowel ons, fabrics you thinset on. It seems each brand has more than 1 and sometimes 3 waterproofing products. Some cost alot - some are reasonable.

I was thinking maybe we can have a thread that will sum it up (for the most part). Maybe a listing of each product available and which application it handles the best. Also maybe a pricing system
$ or $$ or $$$. to give the idea of what the total costs are including labor and material. For example Kerdi might be expensive to buy but theres only one coat and almost no curing time compared to some roll ons that are cheaper to buy but have more labor involved for multiple coats and drying times.

I know some of you guys are real experts in this field and have communications with sales reps frequently so it would probably be best to let you guys have at it.

Answers we should be looking for are:

Ease of application-

Overall cost to HO - Not specific numbers but Low - MId - High

Time - from install to ready for tile.

I was doing pretty good with understanding all these products but I think you just confused me all over again :laughing:

Maybe some moderation, polls or page by page rundowns of each product or company would work...

 

Maybe Angus will chime in soon. I think this would be a good thread if it is minimized to cost, ease of application, cure times, crossing different manufacturer products together etc... and try to stray away from sales tactics, reps and personal dislikes...

 

AGREED!

For example which product would be best for a tub enclosure?

Which product would be best for a shower stall with a tiled floor where you need waterproof both the floor and the walls.

Heres a small list of what is usually discussed here on CT.


Schluter

- Kerdi

- Ditra

Laticrete

-Hydro-Ban

-Watertight

-9235

Noble

-Seal

-wall seal

Redgard

Mapei

-Aquadefense

 

Hydro ban.. Enough said.. Wait , kerdi enough said , dammit aqua net.. Oops thats hair spay..

 

I got all the Aquas!

 

Angus...where do u use AquaNet... :shifty:

 

In the niches Todd! Has no one share this tip with you... :laughing:

 

Lol..

 

Heres some info i came up with. If any one disagress please let me know why.



Kerdi including thinset to apply $1.90 Sq.ft. More difficult to install, basically no down time.

Redgard easier install 1.64 SQ ft must wait for curing

Hydro ban $2.15 pr Sq. ft Easier install must wait for curing.

 

I've been using kerdi for years, however, I have switched to hydroban. I like the fact I can use whichever thinset suits the job and I really like the fact I can offer a system warranty of 25 years or lifetime when I use all laticrete products.
And, I pay $1.20 sq ft for HB

 

And, I pay $1.20 sq ft for HB

Is that based off 2 coats?

 

Heres some info i came up with. If any one disagress please let me know why.

Kerdi including thinset to apply $1.90 Sq.ft. More difficult to install, basically no down time.

Redgard easier install 1.64 SQ ft must wait for curing

Hydro ban $2.15 pr Sq. ft Easier install must wait for curing.

I like to put a layer of Kerdi down then redgard then hydroban . My cost $7 sq ft.:laughing:

 

I think cost wise they are pretty much close to each other,if you factor the time. I use Noble TS or Dal Seal TS. Because they are more expensive:laughingifference of 3-5 hundred for average shower is nothing compare to the price of the total job.When a client is ready to spend 10-20-30 grand, that is fairly irrelative. I rather work with products that I am comfortable and customized.Time is money.:thumbup:

 

This topic is too broad. There's no way you can nail down what's cheapest, fastest or "best".

Each person has different skill sets which may make one work better (faster) than another. Also, the cost of each material can vary. I get Mapei products much cheaper than Laticrete.

I try not to corner myself by using only 1 material. Each situation may call for a different material based off budget, location and situation.

For the most part the only material I've pretty much abandoned is Kerdi. NobleSeal is a viable alternative in almost every situation.

 

I think that Noble and Laticrete would be the most expensive but you definately have the much wider choices of thinsets. One thing I like about the Noble membranes is that you can virtually use 1 thinset for the whole job and 1 membrane throughout (wall and floor). These two products seem to be honored together as well (for warranty purposes) meaning that you could do a full Noble shower and use Hydroban around niches, benches, seams etc... and I don't think Eric or Henry have an issue.

Seems that Schluter is the most cost effective when it comes to the product price and thinset since the unmodified is cheaper. You need to carry bags of modified thinset or latex additive for installing ditra to ply which I think, can be a burdon depending on how much of the product you use. I personally have not gotten the knack of embedding kerdi to a T. Sometimes it slides or binds up on me.
Laticrete endorses the use of HydoBan in conjunction with Kerdi but not sure about the other way around.

Considering job scenerios I would always use a liquid with a tub wall surround unless time is a major factor in a 1 bath situation where a membrane can speed things up (considering dry times)

Somewhere the Custom and Mapei fit in there but I can't get the Mapei and don't know too much about Custom other than using some of their thinsets in the past

 

I would love to see a big side by side or matrix on the different waterproofing products.

Since I stop using Kerdi a couple years back I have not looked back.

When I need a membrane I use Nobel TS from Nobel Company. I like it because the roll is 5' and I can do my shower pans with no creases at all! That and the perm rating for steam showers has a commercial rating.

But.

I'm not sold on the membrane install for every job. I'm not in a rush to bang showers out in 3-4 days so many times I use liquids because the skill set is easier and the cost are lower.

In the liquids I love Aqua Defense & Hydro Ban and ahh that's it really. I have built many bathrooms with Red Guard but too many online poster have had problems with Custom's customer service so I dropped them like a ton of bricks when I tried Hydro Ban.

There is so many more.

 

In the niches Todd! Has no one share this tip with you... :laughing:

JDub,
Are you suggesting that I use Aqua Net hair spray in niches...??

 

I need to work on my humor. That was suppose to be a joke.

JW

 

I need to work on my humor. That was suppose to be a joke.

JW

I thought that maybe hair spray was a new found waterproofer :laughing:

 

"Back in the Day" Aqua Net hair spray was used to seal distributors in cars... Seems the lacquer in it would seal moisture out of the distributor cap...

 

For the liquid type waterproofers, are you guys also using fabric in change of plane areas (were floor meets wall) or are you just keeping substrates tight and then brush on membrane?

Not using a fabric kind of scares me a lil.

I was taught the old school way of tile and waterproofing pans and sometimes have a hard time adjusting to these new products. A couple questions i have:

Can you use liquid membranes on DensArmor, regular drywall and plywood? could you double up the 3/4 ply for a bathroom, then Hydro -Ban or Aquadefense then lay deck mud.

Would Hydro-Ban be an acceptible water proofer for a basement wall/floor situation?
We know it keeps water in, but does it also keep water out?

 

I cannot speak for Hydro Ban but as for AquaDefense:

It can be used directly over drywall.
It can be used as a waterproofing and crack isolation membrane on floors.
It cannot be used over ply on walls.
It cannot be used for reversed hydrostatic pressure situations.

Of course, each situation is unique and there might be limitations that would alter the requirements or use of the material altogether.

I still say there is no 1 "cure-all" material. I think if you are trained properly, each material becomes a little bit better and easier to use. A problem arises with any material if it isn't being installed properly.

 

For the liquid type waterproofers, are you guys also using fabric in change of plane areas (were floor meets wall) or are you just keeping substrates tight and then brush on membrane?

Not using a fabric kind of scares me a lil.

I was taught the old school way of tile and waterproofing pans and sometimes have a hard time adjusting to these new products. A couple questions i have:

Can you use liquid membranes on DensArmor, regular drywall and plywood? could you double up the 3/4 ply for a bathroom, then Hydro -Ban or Aquadefense then lay deck mud.

Would Hydro-Ban be an acceptible water proofer for a basement wall/floor situation?
We know it keeps water in, but does it also keep water out?

I love hydro ban, but keeping water out is totally different than keeping it in. The pressure of water coming into a basement is way more than what would be exerted keeping into a shower. Jmo

 

Found another new (to me) fabric called aqua shield by a company called blanke. It is sold in the same size rolls as kerdi, only it's blue and sais to use mod.

Is this a kerdi re-label like dalseal is to noble?

 

I've heard many bad things about Blanke. If I'm not mistaken, there's even a class-action lawsuit against them. Don't quote me but I definitely have not heard anything good about that product.

Just Google the name yourself.

 

I saw some reviews at another forum and many said that it sucks but who knows if they were paid to say that... :whistling:

 

I have been using Hydroment Ultra Set for a long time and has always worked great. Seems like it's very similar to some of the products that you guys are using.

Specs http://products.construction.com/Ma...s/Hydroment-Ultra-Set-Advanced-Waterproofing-Crack-Isolation-Membrane-NST8384-P

 

Here's a thread where people are discussing failures and a potential lawsuit. I don't know if it ever came to fruition.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47605

The Blanke underlayment in question was called UniMat and seems to be no longer manufactured.

 

Blanke is a horrible company that produced a horrible product called Uni-Mat Pro. When the failures started they comprised a list of installation errors that somehow produced a crunching sound after the fleece seperated from the blue plastic. When I passed their original 'list' of errors they produced another. I have replaced floors in 6 homes in order to save my reputation for their terrible "ditra" like product.

 

What is your company name?

Can anyone show me a link to a failed Blanke job?

These claims you hear so often online are very hard to prove. The story goes round and round but if there was a failure you would see pictures, court cases and such online.

More internet mumbo jumbo.

Many of these types of posts come from posters with a "1" post count.

Lets see a picture! If you have done six surely you have a photo or two.

JW

 

ok this may already be out but it would be cool to have a water proof thinset so just trowel it out and bam instant backer board/waterproofing membrane in one and if it hasnt been invented please look into this pen.....:thumbup:

 

I think it is out. However, have you ever demo'd tile and seen massive voids underneath? I think that's the big concern with me.