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Discussion Starter #1
This is getting really out of hand, I'm trying to get a plumber to put in a second gas hot water heater in my own house, also run a new gas line to a future stove in the kitchen, a new gas line to an existing fire place to eventually convert to gas, a new line to the back yard to feed a future barbeque grill and a fire pit.

I have never talked to more than 3 people before hiring someone to do the work, I'm up to 6 and counting!

Everybody I talk to has a different story. These aren't just different interpretations. Yes, I realize there are always many different ways to do the same thing, but I'm getting told plans that aren't just different, but contradict each other. Only 4 of the 6 even brought up BTUs, 2 of the 6 only brought up how the gas pressure drops with the length of the runs.

Keep in mind that these are all licensed plumbers by the state.

1) You can't add a 2nd hot water heater because your main flue is only 8 inches, too small to handle it. You will have to direct vent or add a second tank as storage and let the first hot water heater heat them both, using a recirculation pipe to circulate the hot water between them.

2) Flue isn't a problem, current gas line (1 inch) too small, have to run a 2nd 1 inch line from the meter.

3) Flue is fine, but you can't run a 2nd line, "THEY" don't like that, have to replace with a 1 1/4 inch line, that should do it.

4) 1 1/4 is too small, have to run a 1 1/2 inch line. Then we will run 3/4 to everything else.

5) Larger gas line won't do it, you will have to have the meter replaced to give you more pressure.

6) Current 1 inch gas line is fine, I will just turn up the gas pressure at the meter if I can, if not we will get the gas company to replace the meter.
I will just continue your 1 inch line and branch off of it to 1/2 for the new stuff.

What in the world is with this situation? How can there be so many interpretations of how to do this, they can't all be right? This is going to have to be inspected so how can some of these scenarios even have a chance of passing inspection?
 

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LOL I know nothing of plumbing but being as ignorant as I am I see how a few of those sound like valid arguments.

1) Why can't we run new flue of the proper size?

2) Instead of running a second line would it be safer and or cheaper to run a larger line in place of the existing?

3)Who is they? Why don't they like it? Is they the voices in your head? Will there be enough pressure coming from the meter to make the the pipe increase work?

4)Will there be enough pressure coming from the meter to make the pipe increase work?

5) Theoretically will my pipes handle the extra pressure? Will a meter switch out be required?

Questions to ask each of them:

How much gas can this size pipe transfer and how much gas does this unit need to operate properly?

What is the gas loss per foot, yard, etc...?

Maybe think of your own spec and ask them "Will this work? Why or Why not? Are there any saftey concerns?

Last but not least... Call your local bldg dept and ask what the codes are. They can tell you if the flue or gas pipe is too small and if more will need to be run.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Grumpy, in desperation I have contacted the building dept and explained to them that they might as well stop making plumbers pass a state test, because non of them can come to a consensus with something that I percieve to be relatively straight forward.

I asked them if I could draw up a plan and show it to a plan inspector and see if we could do the calculations, because homeowners aren't allowed to run gas lines they refused.

I even downloaded a gas line sizing program, but son of a gun, couldn't get it running.

I just met plumber #7, he said I should think about having Ward Flex run, would save a ton of money, he is taking classes at night about it, knows it would be good to use, but doesn't know enough about it to install.

I am not sure what to do at this point. I just don't understand how this is such an unusual job. What is really frustrating is that I can't start the remodel on my basement until these gas lines are installed.

So if you are a plumber and you needed this job done at your house how would you find the right person? How would you qualify them?
 

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That first post was somthing else Mike. I see that crap all the time, seems like the license board should issue a your opinion testing program.

Try the library, I have had great sucsess with profesional reasearch there. I put my first septic system in from books, did a dam good job too if I say so myself.:cheesygri

Bob
 

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Mike, first thing you have to do is add all of your btus together, I will also need the total length from the meter to the last fixture.

As far as the flue goes, what else is tucked into that flue besides the water heater?
AN 8" flue should be able to handle (2) 40 gallon heaters no problem, however if you have a 175,000 btu gas furnace also into it it may become a problem.
The flue, what type is it , B Vent, or block.

Ward fles is great stuff, hybread systems work great for this type design. Yes each fixture has what is known as a home run back to the meter were a manafold is created to connect each one.

Never Never try to raise the gas pressure in a main, fixtures are designed for 1 pressure not any added pressure.
If you did do this each fixture would require a pressure regulator, also the entire main would have to be labled every 12" that it is a high pressure gas main No excess tees are allowed and the entire main must be pressure tested to 150 psi for 24 hours.

Hope this answered some of you questions, and please send me some info and I may be able to tell you your design size main.

Bernie
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Hello Bernie,

I will be happy to supply you with the info if you think you can make something out of it.

1 inch black pipe from meter to furnace and hot water heater.
Run is 54 feet.
Furnace 140,000 btu
Hot Water heater 40,000 btu

Want to add
2nd hot water heater 40,000 btu, next to old one.
Fire place log insert 90,000 btu, run from meter 72 feet.
Gas stove 60,000 btu, run from meter 76 feet.
Barbeque 50,000 btu, run from meter 86 feet.
Fire pit 80,000 btu, run from meter 96 feet.

(I attached a layout.)

The flue has the furnace and hot water heater attached now.

8 Inch flue pipe with a T. At the T, one 5 inch pipe to the furnace and a 4 inch pipe to the hot water heater. The vents are round as is the flue. B-vent is the newer locking stuff with a sleeve in it? This just appears to be the old style pipe. House built in 1984.

Thanks for your help.
 

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Mike thanks for the dia, I will work them out for you today.

I will post results either later today or in the am for you

Bernie
 

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Mike
Due to the size and lenght of you new gas system you are going to have to double the diameter to a 2" main this will carry the entire load.
The 2" main extends from the meter to the first fixture in this case, it would be where the new water heater is placed.

From that tee it drops to a 1-1/2 main to the 2nd hot water heater, after that heater the furnace is located and from that point it drops to a 1-1/4 main.

The 1-1/4 main extends a few feet to the tee for the range, the range feed main from the supply main is 22' and its size is 1/2"

The 10' from the range tee too the fireplace tee is a 1" main, the fireplace feed main 18' is 1/2".

The final 32' of feed main to the out door fixtures Fire pit/ barbeque is a 3/4" feed to the last fixture, this is due to the fire pit is a larger fixture.

B-Vent flue for the entire load would have to be upgraded to at least a 10" flue to handle the combined load of the 3 fixtures.

Hope this helps you some
Bernie
 
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