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Discussion Starter #1
So the elections are overwith in Iraq, something like 72% turn out. Do you think it means anything?

I loved the report I read about the soldier from Fort Drum yelling at an Iraqi who told him he was too scared to go vote. He screamed at the guy: "I came 3000 miles from my home and haven't seen my wife or new baby in 9 months to give you the right to freaken vote and you're scared to walk over to a polling station? Get off your asses and find the courage to vote and do something for your own country!" He told his translater to translate it word for word and loud enough for everyone standing around to hear. :Thumbs:
 

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Mike Finley said:
So the elections are overwith in Iraq, something like 72% turn out. Do you think it means anything?
Yeah - I think it means the voting got done on schedule - period. One more action step taken. Now on to the next. That's how you eat an elephant, one spoonful at a time.
 

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The only problem I see, like Ted Kennedy says , it is a "QUAGMIRE" and the Iraqis don't even deserve a chance! PPFFFFFFFFF
The only thing we have to fear are the likes of Ted Kennedy and the pessimest left.
 

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The largest problem of all is imposing our 200 yr. 'democracy" on a civilization that has existed for 6000 yrs. These people are tribal and nomads, their cities were built by the Mesopotainians, Khan, Alexander, Romans and they still don't understand the concept any more than the original Americans understood "owning" land.
I'm also interested on the cartology of the area. I'm certain that if they were allowed to express their own views that we would have a much different picture of the area. We like to draw lines and say that this is on one side and that is on the other. That last semi-worked in Korea, failed in Vietnam and, I feel, will fail again in the Middle East. The lines there have been muddled for 60 centuries, I don't see us changing that culture in just a few years.
You have to look at the biggest picture and work down.
BTW, I worked with people from this area for many years. Most were from the top 6%, some were not. I think that I have a fair grasp of the situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I also enjoyed reading the stories about expatriot Iraqis here in the USA spending $2000 just to vote. Since there were only 4 polling cities here, in order to vote they had to get to the polling station in person 2 weeks before the vote to register, then return 2 weeks later to actually vote. A lot of these people are working for minimum wages and spent what amounted to their life savings just to vote! 4 or 5 of them would borrow a car or buy a beat up car just to make the trip, taking 2-3 days driving non-stop to register and then do it all over again on election day.

I think that says alot about the importance of the vote and the underestimation that we as Americans are putting on it. What was the turn out to vote her in the last election? something like 60% wasn't it, and nobody was risking their lives or spending their life savings just to vote. I see the vote as a huge turning point in Iraq, probably as significant as the actual toppelling of Saddam 2 years ago, and more important than anything that has happened since then.
 

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As an American, I have great feelings about our Democracy, and would encourage any country to do the same.
I am really proud of the Iraqi's that got out to vote. they really have alot to be happy about.
My buddy didn't vote because he did not have the time......what's with that?!?!


I do have an issue with "imposing" our system on other countries, but just slightly.
I really am proud of how we do things, and just because something was done for 6,000 years does not make it right.
we were beating our chests for thousands of years until we stood upright and learned to use our voice box.
And I also agree that just because I think the way we do things is right does not mean it is, but that does not change my opinion.
Democracy has downsides like everything else, but I think it is the most fair to humans.
And if all humans could live 1/2 their life in Dictatorship and the other 1/2 in Democracy, they would pick Democracy.
 

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Fist off, freedom is not an imposition. Were they children,(as many in the press seem to think the men and women of Iraq are) it would be different.

As a hard-core libertarian/conservative, I have a few problems with the bread and circuses surrounding this latest turn of events in Iraq.

I don't know where this nascient "democracy" in Iraq is headed. According to the election returns, it has been a blowout in favor of shiite muslim clerics.

That is the thing about democracy. It is utterly dependent upon a set of <i>a priori</i> rules set in place before a general election.

Without a constitution, or some semblance thereof, prior to the swoon of election day; all bets are off.

I think Iraq will be our new Iran. We had a staunch ally in the middle-east before Jiminy Cricket Carter got his hand on the steering wheel.

This time we will have military bases. Bonus.

CHU
 

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Flor, walking upright started back problems and spoken language caused even more conflicts.
Read the 'dead sea scrolls' 1+2. these people never wanted to rule themselves. They welcomed anybody that would do the work for them, Mesopotanians, Khan, Alexander, Romans, anybody. Left to their own devices, all that they could do is kill each other over nothing. They didn't know or care that they had oil back then. They actually fought over the control of the trade routes.
Our 'system' of democracy is in it's infancy, only 200 yrs old. Surely not matured or proven and is in a constant state of flux. It works pretty well most of the time but, in a time line, it's still in beta version. Is this what we should impose on the rest of the world?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
ccoffer said:
I don't know where this nascient "democracy" in Iraq is headed. According to the election returns, it has been a blowout in favor of shiite muslim clerics.
Good or bad, I don't see how there was any other out come possible. The Sunnis who make up less than 20% of the population have ruled over the Sunnis since 1930. Doing so because the system allowed no fair elections to decide who ruled who. In 2004 faced with the knowledge that with open elections this was one more nail in the coffin of them ever getting back in power they decide to boycott the election. If you were back against the wall and knew in advance that an upcoming election was going to take you out of power would you still vote or would you use a strategy of boycotting the election so that you could lie to the people and say the election isn't valid because not everybody voted?

The Sunnis have been benefiting off the ********************es for 70 years, they are the back bone of the insurgents, they aren't represented because they chose not to in order to add fuel to the insurgents fire. The ********************es are the majority of the poplulation, they should represent the majority of the elected positions.

ccoffer said:
Without a constitution, or some semblance thereof, prior to the swoon of election day; all bets are off.
The idea was to let the Iraqis create their own constitution, without electing the people to create it there would be noone to do so, so the election comes first, now these representatives of the people will try to create a constitution.

The Sunnis will desperately try to derail everything they can as they already have and I'm sure they will begin soon to try to create a civil war in Iraq based on the current elected government being invalid. The ********************es who voted and created the government will not be willing to step backwards, the Sunnis have nothing to lose other than more power so they won't step back either. It will be up to the current government to find a way to unite the two sides and avoid a civil war.
 

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"The largest problem of all is imposing our 200 yr. 'democracy" on a civilization that has existed for 6000 yrs."

Actually if you looked at the original Hebrew political structure near the time of Ishmael, it was very much a faith-based democracy. Beyond this, our democratic republic was "imposed" here upon a civilization used to 6000 years of autocracies. It worked out just fine for us.

Tim
 

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Teetorbilt said:
The largest problem of all is imposing our 200 yr. 'democracy" on a civilization that has existed for 6000 yrs.
I guess if Adam had spent more time properly attending to the needs of his wife (so she wasn't out wandering around shopping for fruit) we'd all be living in a world where we hold hands and sing cumbaya 24 hours a day. But since that's not the case, history has always been about who's bad enought to impose their ******************** on someone else. Until the USA came along that generally meant that the conquered got their fields salted and the victors got a new infusion of very cheap labor and foreign DNA. I'll grant you that the American Indians got roughed up pretty bad in the process of settling N. America but, as I noted before, that's typical of the history of world civilization.
Silly-ass utopian leftists need to wake up and realize that if they're not interested in having the "western democracy" (read FREEDOM) brand of civilization imposed on others , or at the very least protected and secured, others will be more than happy to impose their brand on them (ask the French and Dutch about how it works). And if you're the type that thinks one brand of civilization is as good as another, check out the rules at http://www.al-islam.org/laws/ and see if you prefer that brand to the one you enjoy now. (rule #1596 is one of my favorites).
Wake up folks, there's a whole lotta' imposin' goin' on out there and we better get used to the idea that the USA is gonna' have to impose back from time to time. God bless the guys and gals that are doing the imposing on our behalfs.
 

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Our 'system' of democracy is in it's infancy, only 200 yrs old. Surely not matured or proven and is in a constant state of flux. It works pretty well most of the time but, in a time line, it's still in beta version. Is this what we should impose on the rest of the world?

Some days I have a really hard time with ideas...then one of my kids come up and sqeeze off an idea so original and good, I actually end up using their idea.
Even though they are young, a fresh young mind can really accomplish something an old used up one like mine cannot.
As a country we are young for sure, but I do not use that as a reason why we should not think we have good ideas that others can benefit from.
 

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Soapbox time.
WWII, a war that we could have easily lost if not for the screwups of the nations that we were fighting. Would we be goose stepping today? I say yes. Germany had us on every front except leadership. Nazi totarialism would have been imposed on us by the fact that they won. Would that make it the best system?
Japan took on too many fronts, China being the largest, and they had very few natural resources. They still kicked butt on Dec. 7th.
Given the mindsets of them and Germany there would only be one winner. Imagine that with China's resources, the Japanese were able to overcome Hitler. Now we're all bowing to the Emperor, does that make it the best system?
I am guessing that I have had more exposure to the rest of the world than most here. I have seen monarchal societies that are exemplary and others that have gone down in flames, the same applies to democratic socieites.
I stick by my original statement. Who are we to impose our beliefs on the rest of the world?
 

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"Who are we to impose our beliefs on the rest of the world?"

The best country in the world.

Tim
 

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Teetorbilt said:
Who are we to impose our beliefs on the rest of the world?
I'm more concerned with the potential for having the beliefs of the rest of the world imposed on me. You said it yourself - I don't want to join the Nazi party and I don't want to have a need to speak Chinese. Also, if I decide to fast I don't want to have to concern myself with Islamic Law rule #1596 that states: If a person forgets that he is observing fast and commits sexual intercourse or he is compelled to have sexual intercourse in a manner that makes him helpless, his fast does not become void. However, if he remembers (that he is observing fast) or ceases to be helpless during sexual intercourse, he should withdraw from the sexual intercourse at once, and if he does not, his fast becomes void.
It's hard for me to reconcile what appears to be your (Teetor's) robust life experience and exceptional intellect with your support of the fatally flawed premise that the USA's actions of the past several years have been an imposition on a people who have, until recently, been ruled by the iron hand of a tyrant. I guess if I'm going to accept your premise then I have to accept the notion that the USA was also an imposition on the folks that called places like Dachau and Treblinka 'home'.
 

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***Danger**** Political discussion...lol

First, the main reason we are over there is our long term safety. It just so happens that the long term solution in this intance is establishiing a free Iraq. The battles being fought were going to occur sometime-- and I prefer them there rather than here.

I would argue that the reason we won WWII (and all the others) was because of our superior system. Not the mechanics of our government, but because of the ideal of freedom it is based upon. No matter how passionate a people are for Hitler or Hiro, it can't equal the passion for freedom.

Also, it seems strange to refer to what we are doing as "imposing democracy". Freedom doesn't seem like an imposition. Is the logic of us "imposing" ourselves: well, hey if they prefer a cruel dictator and rape rooms who are we to impose our ideals?

Regardless, God bless the guys and gals serving the USA over there.
 

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Pipe, Saddam was just a small belch in the history of the region.
I have the Koran at arms reach and have spent nearly 7 years with the people that practice it, there are a number of other books that complement it.

The odd person that I am, I read religion in the bathroom, it is one of the few times that I am able to concentrate on something other than business. I am currently on the second edition of the dead sea scrolls. I have studied religion, past and present. Greek, Egyption, Mayan, Aztec, American Indian, +++++ and most of the popular Christian ones.
In light of this, I have developed my own. It embraces all and holds chapel in God's, Gods church. Prayer is every day in the church without walls or ceiling, song is provided by whoever is near. Birds, squirrels and anyone else are welcome to join in.
Live your life and love it! It's all that you have for now.
 

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Teetorbilt said:
Live your life and love it! It's all that you have for now.
Words for the ages. I couldn't agree more. Go Philly! :Thumbs:
 

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Wanna bet over/under total points? 48. Passing yds? Picked up one today, Philly +8.
Tomorrow may be fun, grab a few tax free G's while drinking beer and watching TV. Ain't life great.
 
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