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ZenRen

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello,

I was sweating some copper and it was going great. Then on my last two joints, the solder instead of flowing into the fittings did just the opposite and beaded up like it was allergic to the copper. Strange because I thought I was doing the exact same thing.

The joints held so I left it like that for the evening so the clients would have some water. Can they still be legit connections even though the solder didnt flow so well? I would rather not redo, but will if I have too.

I am curious about what happened. I have had trouble sweating before, but never had it go suddenly off when it was going so well just a little while earlier.

Thank you for any input.
 
#2 ·
Are you sure that you cleaned your pipes well enough with the emorry cloth and put enough flux? No one ever likes to really have to redo work but you are talking about water here dude, you should have more of a positive attitude if you have to go back and redo the work. Water damage and Fire damage are the worse,
 
#4 ·
renov8r said:
Are you sure that you cleaned your pipes well enough with the emorry cloth and put enough flux? No one ever likes to really have to redo work but you are talking about water here dude, you should have more of a positive attitude if you have to go back and redo the work. Water damage and Fire damage are the worse,
Click to expand...
When I was a kid, I helped my dad and a friend of his take out our coal fired gravity furnace and put in a hot water boiler with all of the subsequent copper piping for a three story, half double.

Since I was little, it was my job to clean all the joints with the emorry cloth. I'll never forget how demanding my dad was on how clean it had to be and how many times I had to re-clean and even re-clean them again.

When he fired everything up and opened up the water, there wasn't a single leak in the entire system. Damn I remember how proud he was.... :clap:

It's funny how a post like this will spur a long forgotten childhood memory. :laughing:

Now, back to your regular scheduled programing....
 
#5 ·
You didn't leave a valve open to release the expanding air. Or you didn't clean/flux well enough.

Either way, you shouldn't have left until there was absolutely no doubt in your mind that the joints were good. It doesn't take long at all to rack up a couple of thousand dollars' worth of water damage.
 
#7 ·
Sometimes, to a novice (no offense), water gets in......turns to steam.......then the guy with the torch tries to keep torching .........cooks the flux out......contaminates the joint......... etc etc.

You simply heat the fitting and it should flow pretty quick. If it doesn't, stop immediately and re-clean it and start fresh.
 
#8 ·
Just to throw this out,years ago,there was a flux called Laco soldering paste,used by many large plumbing firms around here,never ever needed to clean pipe or fittings with emery cloth. They made beautiful joints never ever leaked. Think the E.P.A.outlawed the product?
 
#9 ·
fjn said:
Just to throw this out,years ago,there was a flux called Laco soldering paste,used by many large plumbing firms around here,never ever needed to clean pipe or fittings with emery cloth. They made beautiful joints never ever leaked. Think the E.P.A.outlawed the product?
Click to expand...
With any flux you can sweat copper without cleaning it (assuming it's somewhat new) and it will take just fine.

I wouldn't recommend it of course. I clean everything, for me at least. I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't. Lol
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Oconomowoc said:
Sometimes, to a novice (no offense), water gets in......turns to steam.......then the guy with the torch tries to keep torching .........cooks the flux out......contaminates the joint......... etc etc.

You simply heat the fitting and it should flow pretty quick. If it doesn't, stop immediately and re-clean it and start fresh.
Click to expand...
No offense taken that is exactly what happened. I have been taken off the plumbing end of the job. Another plumber will finish the job, check out those last connections.

Meanwhile, those connections are holding strong. Can a copper joint start to leak over time? Is it not true that if there is a problem with a copper joint it will be immediately apparent? No leaks then one is good to go?

I need to contend with admitting that I have probably gotten into too many different trades.
 
#12 ·
We had to do a repair as a result of a joint failure, last winter.

The remodel was done, the winter before.

Registered Master Plumber, who I have known since 1998.

This was the one and only incident, in that time...

It happens.

Can you say "PEX"?
 
#13 ·
ZenRen said:
No offense taken that is exactly what happened. I have been taken off the plumbing end of the job. Another plumber will finish the job, check out those last connections.

Meanwhile, those connections are holding strong. Can a copper joint start to leak over time? Is it not true that if there is a problem with a copper joint it will be immediately apparent? No leaks then one is good to go?

I need to contend with admitting that I have probably gotten into too many different trades.
Click to expand...
Sometimes. The biggest fear for a novice shouldn't be a slow leak that develops over time but rather a blowout.

What's common among people learning the craft is lack of heat in the right direction. Soldering is an art form that requires proper control of heat, it's really that simple. Anybody can clean a part and anybody can flux but learning proper best control takes time and practice. It's not hard, it just requires some focus and repetition.

A blowout is often caused by what's known as a "rim solder". What happens is the novice tends to focus on the edge of a fitting where it meets the tube. It's natural to think like this because people think of soldering like a weld joint. It's not.

Anyhow, the rim of the fitting gets soldered......it can even look good. But in a "rim solder" the strength of the joint doesn't exist.

The theory of soldering works only when the entire socket has been penetrated.

Heat is used to "draw in he solder. It actually pulls it in to the joint. That is why you heat the socket.

Remember in biology class when you put a drop of water on a piece of 4" square glass? Then you put another piece of glass on top for observation under a microscope? What happens? That small bead of water spreads and covers the entire surface area right?

Soldering is the same thing. A fitting is made to have such a tight tolerance to the tubing that a good solder joint only requires a small amount of solder. Proper heat control makes this happen.
 
#15 ·
Oconomowoc said:
Sometimes. The biggest fear for a novice shouldn't be a slow leak that develops over time but rather a blowout.

What's common among people learning the craft is lack of heat in the right direction. Soldering is an art form that requires proper control of heat, it's really that simple. Anybody can clean a part and anybody can flux but learning proper best control takes time and practice. It's not hard, it just requires some focus and repetition.

A blowout is often caused by what's known as a "rim solder". What happens is the novice tends to focus on the edge of a fitting where it meets the tube. It's natural to think like this because people think of soldering like a weld joint. It's not.

Anyhow, the rim of the fitting gets soldered......it can even look good. But in a "rim solder" the strength of the joint doesn't exist.

The theory of soldering works only when the entire socket has been penetrated.

Heat is used to "draw in he solder. It actually pulls it in to the joint. That is why you heat the socket.

Remember in biology class when you put a drop of water on a piece of 4" square glass? Then you put another piece of glass on top for observation under a microscope? What happens? That small bead of water spreads and covers the entire surface area right?

Soldering is the same thing. A fitting is made to have such a tight tolerance to the tubing that a good solder joint only requires a small amount of solder. Proper heat control makes this happen.
Click to expand...
Great explanation.

But how do you explain this? I was in a house with a leaking 3/4 tee near the HWH. Pro comes in, cuts it out, doesn't seem to even attempt to dry out the line, does a very quick cleaning & paste, fires up his acetylene...and bam, he was done in 10 minutes! I was like "Are you serious?!! That will hold?"

These are kind of guys that keep firing the joint non-stop as they're applying solder and it's bubbling out like crazy. Still, no leak. What the h...?
 
#16 ·
MarkJames said:
Great explanation.

But how do you explain this? I was in a house with a leaking 3/4 tee near the HWH. Pro comes in, cuts it out, doesn't seem to even attempt to dry out the line, does a very quick cleaning & paste, fires up his acetylene...and bam, he was done in 10 minutes! I was like "Are you serious?!! That will hold?"

These are kind of guys that keep firing the joint non-stop as they're applying solder and it's bubbling out like crazy. Still, no leak. What the h...?
Click to expand...
I'd be happy to explain it.

The next time you see it happen look closely at the roll of solder. Many plumbers carry a roll of 50/50 solder (50% lead). 50/50 is spooled on a red plastic roll and it's how a fast joint can be soldered.

It's illegal.

Still, I can sweat a joint with water if it's sweat in the proper order where I'm more or less pushing the water around. It comes with practice.

You've heard of the bread trick right?

Also. Google "jet-sweat".
 
#17 ·
Also, nothing beats a good quality flux. A trained eye can still let steam out and solder up a joint.

All of this comes down to practice. Last week I did some plumbing for a member here "texaswax". As I pulled in the driveway I was blown away by what he was building - glued up curved trim. Had I tried to attempt what he was doing it wouldn't end well. It became obvious he had lots of experience.

All of us here have developed a certain skill set. While I'm a master plumber that simply means I'm a novice at everything else.
 
#18 ·
MarkJames said:
Great explanation.

But how do you explain this? I was in a house with a leaking 3/4 tee near the HWH. Pro comes in, cuts it out, doesn't seem to even attempt to dry out the line, does a very quick cleaning & paste, fires up his acetylene...and bam, he was done in 10 minutes! I was like "Are you serious?!! That will hold?"

These are kind of guys that keep firing the joint non-stop as they're applying solder and it's bubbling out like crazy. Still, no leak. What the h...?
Click to expand...
Also a twin head acetylene torch bent to the proper width will heat up a fitting in fraction the time a propane blow torch will.
 
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