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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
Here some facts
https://sf.curbed.com/2016/9/16/12945600/why-millennium-tower-sinking
"Kudos to "geoengr" for bringing some balance to the issue.
I am a structural engineer and have casually followed the published stories for this building. To date, I have read that the tall building has many inches of settlement and maybe 2 inches of lean. As a percentage, this 2 inches might be on the order of 00.02 to 00.03% of the height, or as a decimal we would show this as 0.0002 to 0.0003. Notice the number of zeroes."
That is comment at news from "Posted on Sep 20, 2016 | 2:48 AM". 2" tilt.

https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/19/15998338/millennium-tower-leaning-sinking-sf-more
"The data, compiled by the ARUP engineering firm brought in by officials of the nextdoor Transbay transit terminal project, suggest the structure is tilting twice as fast as it had been in earlier ARUP data.

It is now listing at least 14 inches toward the massive Salesforce building going up nearby on Mission Street. The data also show the building has sunk close to 17 inches at its low point, settling about an inch since the problem emerged last year."
It is from Jul 19, 2017, 9:06am PDT
So in less than one year it tilt 12" more. It do not look good to me at all.

https://www.modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/the-big-sink
"When work started on the Millennium a decade ago, word got out fast in the development community that the concrete tower—uniquely heavy for such a tall structure built on landfill and not anchored to bedrock—was having problems. “Construction guys are like everybody else,” says one major city developer. “We’re all gossipy—like little old ladies.” Another builder says he heard that an acquaintance was considering buying into the building when its units first went on sale. The developer told him about the rumors of sinkage: “He did a little homework, and, even in 2009, there was enough evidence. He backed out.”
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
https://www.modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/the-big-sink
But Peskin does have a letter penned in 2009 by then–DBI deputy director Raymond Lui—a document that, in mid-September, the supervisor blew up to poster size for a televised press conference. In this letter, Lui grilled the Millennium’s engineer of record with eight separate queries regarding the building’s “larger than expected settlement.” Before the first luxury condo had been sold, the Millennium had already sunk 8.3 inches and counting, more than the 4 to 6 inches that originally had been predicted by the developer’s engineers for the building’s entire lifetime. “That, Mr. Lui, is quite the letter you wrote,” Peskin told him at the September hearing. “What got you to write it?” Lui calmly said he could not recall.

Despite clear evidence that DBI higher-ups had approved a building they’d been warned was sinking, the department’s representatives maintained that their on-the-ground inspectors hadn’t actually detected any sinking—and no higher-up appears to have clued them in. As the denials piled up at the hearing, dozens of Millennium residents seated in the Board of Supervisors chambers murmured and shook their heads incredulously: The “worst-kept secret in town” had eluded the two groups who could have benefited most from learning it—building inspectors and condo buyers. Instead, in August 2009, the DBI green-lit the building to begin sales. Moving trucks packed with Minotaur statues were soon pulling up out front.
 

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Tipi, I really appreciate you doing the work researching everything for us.

This has been a fun thread to read.

One person's misery is another person's structural engineering light reading I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
^^^ It would be true if I would post here about comments of residents that are suffering. Evidently I post here proof of Democrats and developers massive corruption where they are ready to put at risk life of thousands of innocent people for money. That is what fascinate me level of corruption and stupidity in a liberal sh hole.
 

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Tipi, I really appreciate you doing the work researching everything for us.

This has been a fun thread to read.

One person's misery is another person's structural engineering light reading I guess.
Well said, Easy. There's definitely an equal mix of sympathy and fascination....but happily from a distance. Just can't imagine how the following two factors came together at a conference room table early on:

1) We're going to build the core structure out of reinforced concrete, vs the much lighter steel option.

2) We're going to pass on the 200' drilling to solid bedrock, and settle for the cheaper, easier packed sand 80' option.

As I said in an earlier post, if this thing is leaning that much, there is a potential for it to fall over and it would be a direct hit to the building being constructed now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
^^^ For one real Millennium tower fan
https://www.modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/the-big-sink

"And yet that’s not quite true. The city had seen one like this before—and rejected it. At around the same time Millennium Tower was moving toward approval and construction, developer Jack Myers submitted plans to erect a skyscraper at 80 Natoma, just two blocks away from the Millennium’s site. It would, like the Millennium, be a poured-concrete structure, though a daintier 52 stories instead of 58. As described by then–DBI director Frank Chiu in 2004, the proposed tower at 80 Natoma and the ground upon which it would have stood reads like a mirror image of the Millennium: It would be “thin relative to its height,” “built on soft soils that are subject to compression, and supported on short piles that wouldn’t reach the bedrock 190 feet below.” Also, it would be “an extraordinarily heavy structure.”

Sans in-house rocket scientists, Chiu called in outside experts for detailed analysis on 80 Natoma. After a full peer review of the building, its foundation, and the soil, Chiu wrote that the experts had determined that “the building could settle an alarming and unacceptable 9–11 inches.” Based on the result of this peer review, the DBI halted the project. (Following a lawsuit, the city eventually purchased the property—which sits above the right-of-way for the proposed path of the high-speed rail tunnel—for $58 million.) For the Millennium—essentially across the street—a similarly rigorous peer review panel was not convened to evaluate the soil and foundation under the tower, and instead largely focused on its aboveground elements."

I think that Jack Myers guy thanks every day God that Chiu stop him. Guess in some skills having in house guy that know what he is doing worth gold. If would not be for that Chiu SF would have two buildings sinking beside each other.
 

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It's pretty remarkable that nobody brought that up.

I feel for the people that bought in. They're basically taking a 100% loss on their purchase. There's no way they can resell, and if it's true that with another couple inches they could start experiencing problems with plumbing due to pitch, the places will become unlivable. Why would you pay to re-pitch pipe in a building that is quite literally falling down?
Developer should have to refund, plus a ton of hardship money, then the building should be dismantled. Total failure. Glad it's not me!
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·

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A quick Google search lists 350 Million as the cost to build which seems very cheap for a 60 story skyscraper, no? I would have guessed 1-1.5B.

But, assuming the 350M is accurate, let's assume for easy numbers, 1/2 is material cost and half is installation/labor/height difficulty cost. I can't see how it would be less expensive than the 175M to dismantle and bring down SAFELY(remember there are buildings all around it with thousands of people occupying daily).

If this continues to tilt, and the 100-150M proposed repair doesn't work, they could be out 500-600M and have nothing but huge lawsuits to show for it. Wrap your head around that one....

I read the tilt is already 1.5' out of alignment already. 18" is insane at a height of 600'+ If this thing gets to 3' off level and is condemned, who the F is going to volunteer to spend a year working on the dismantle project?? Not me...
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
^^^ They and I guess micropiles would work but I'm not 100% sure as Mandala bay is huge in footprint and this one is not so much. As you said how to take that thing down if that will be only solution?
But see difference, they fix sinking right away in Mandalay bay when it was spotted. What this Millennium group was thinking? As you said already is incredible mess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
If this continues to tilt, and the 100-150M proposed repair doesn't work, they could be out 500-600M and have nothing but huge lawsuits to show for it. Wrap your head around that one....
We forget one big thing. This repair is calculated by structural engineers so suppose to work. That said not going to bedrock is mistake of structural engineers not of developer. Evidently structural engineers that was hired by city to check another building was capable to do proper calculation. Till today I was't capable to figure out who advise to NOT go to bedrock at this project and who from city approved it. Everyone say he was responsible for static above ground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Why would micropiles in Sf case cost 150M for 100 of it. At LV case they installed 500 of it for 10M. Just pure logic - drill 200' in throw pile in anchor to deck and one is 1m???
 

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Why would micropiles in Sf case cost 150M for 100 of it. At LV case they installed 500 of it for 10M. Just pure logic - drill 200' in throw pile in anchor to deck and one is 1m???
they have overhead, like license and insurance,

the work in vegas was done almost 20 years ago,

and because they can
 

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Why would micropiles in Sf case cost 150M for 100 of it. At LV case they installed 500 of it for 10M. Just pure logic - drill 200' in throw pile in anchor to deck and one is 1m???
I agree with Bull on this one. Under normal conditions, the site is level and wide open and cleared. You're one of the early subs and the drilling to bedrock is straight forward. Now, you're working in the basement of a building that's been settling for almost 10 years. Not sure how large their equipment is either, they may need to restructure ceilings nearby and enlarge door openings, could be 100 things in the way of where they need to operate.

Not to mention, this may be a case of "he who touches it last, owns it". Any further increase in sinking or tilting may be blamed on "incorrect operations" of the guys attempting the repair. If I was their insurance carrier, I'd tell them not to touch this without a bible thick pile of legal waivers. When deaths occur, everyone gets sued.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 · (Edited)
Not to mention, this may be a case of "he who touches it last, owns it". Any further increase in sinking or tilting may be blamed on "incorrect operations" of the guys attempting the repair. If I was their insurance carrier, I'd tell them not to touch this without a bible thick pile of legal waivers. When deaths occur, everyone gets sued.
Well I learned something today. Very good call. This is why worth roam this forum from time to time.
Second that worth note here is when disaster strike evidently at Mandaly bay they had some true leader who didn't run from problems then tackle it right away. If "Millennium group" would not run from problem, together with DBI of SF, they would not be at this point (point of no return maybe).
In another tread I was blamed for profiling. What happen with Millennium tower is so typical with minority (mean Indian, Chinese, Arabs) house flippers that I worked for. If some expensive problem show up they always tend to hide problem not to fix it. And than will rather spend months and years in court than simply fix sh when it show up. Millennium tower is exact same case only X 100 000.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
You can not use implosion here. And using of some massive machine to destroy already stressed building from top to bottom? I do not see right solution.
 

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Wow first I heard of this...leaning 14"....lets hope it's not top heavy.
 

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