Setting New basement windows in cut cement.

6618 Views 16 Replies 8 Participants Last post by WarnerConstInc., Oct 16, 2013

Greg from K/W

Discussion Starter · Oct 15, 2013

Had to install a vinyl window in a newly cut opening. What would you do to secure it? There is no wood buck in the opening and a total of 1 1/2" space extra on each side. There is no "J" on the inside of the window for the wood jamb extension to fit into.

So how would you install this window? Please describe to me step by step.

One other thing its a top tip in and side pull in. You turn the handle up 90 degrees and I will open in as an egress window. If you turn the handle all the way up it will tip in.

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CompleteW&D

· #2 · Oct 15, 2013 (Edited)

In this situation I would install what I call a full master frame. New 1 x (or 2 x if that's what you need for the window to fit properly)buck frame, inside and outside stops, interior casing and exterior brickmold. Caulk everything in and you should be good to go. Then, if you so choose, you can wrap the exterior.

Just remember when creating your buck frame, you need at least 1/4" around the entire window for expansion and contraction. My guess is it's getting pretty cool where you are this time of year. If you're too tight in the opening now, this summer when that window gets hot, it won't have anywhere to expand except back in on itself. Which will create all kinds of problems, including stress cracks in the glass.

jlsconstruction

· #3 · Oct 16, 2013

CompleteW&D said:
In this situation I would install what I call a full master frame. New 1 x (or 2 x if that's what you need for the window to fit properly)buck frame, inside and outside stops, interior casing and exterior brickmold. Caulk everything in and you should be good to go. Then, if you so choose, you can wrap the exterior.

Just remember when creating your buck frame, you need at least 1/4" around the entire window for expansion and contraction. My guess is it's getting pretty cool where you are this time of year. If you're too tight in the opening now, this summer when that window gets hot, it won't have anywhere to expand except back in on itself. Which will create all kinds of problems, including stress cracks in the glass.

Same thing I do, we did a few today. Finishing them up in the morning, but we stucco over the wood.

WarnerConstInc.

· #4 · Oct 16, 2013

Spray foam will hold.

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tjbnwi

· #5 · Oct 16, 2013

Seeing as this is in concrete, I would make the buck John describes with 5/4 treated deck planks. Tapcon the buck to the foundation. Shim window as needed while installing.

Tom

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TNTRenovate

· #6 · Oct 16, 2013

tjbnwi said:
Seeing as this is in concrete, I would make the buck John describes with 5/4 treated deck planks. Tapcon the buck to the foundation. Shim window as needed while installing.

Tom

We use treated as well. But if I use yellow pine, I prime all sides and end cuts.

ccappaul

· #7 · Oct 16, 2013 (Edited)

Build your Jambs the same net size as the window. screw them to the window sides with some galvanized strap....

Make sure the concrete cut is very clean (scrub it down so that it is nothing but concrete .... no dust......)

Line everything up in the hole ...
Shims... nail jambs to interior stud wall (No casing yet)
fill cavity with expanding window and door foam... cut the foam away ......

Clean up the concrete again dust free... caulk exterior with the proper caulking (if it exist) for the application... Screw the window into the concrete

If it makes you feel better ..

screw the window to the concrete (but its probably not going anywhere )

Finish trim exterior with some brake metal so you never have to paint it or worry about rotten wood.

You could also screw an L flashing to the window ( Nail fin style sort of) to take up that 1 1/2 inch gap making caulking easier. Leave it back 1/2 an inch from the face ... use a bond breaker tape so the caulking will only stick to the concrete and the vinyl window... tool caulking out maybe 1/8 of an inch thick.. that leaves you 3/8 " to tuck your brake metal and caulk again..

Hmmm.... sounds good to me.

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jlsconstruction

· #8 · Oct 16, 2013

ccappaul said:
Finish trim exterior with some brake metal so you never have to paint it or worry about rotten wood.

Is that what you tell your customers? Pretty much every window I've pulled coil stock off of was rotten. And it doesn't chip like paint but it fades, and stains. So yes it needs paint

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ccappaul

· #9 · Oct 16, 2013

jlsconstruction said:
Is that what you tell your customers? Pretty much every window I've pulled coil stock off of was rotten. And it doesn't chip like paint but it fades, and stains. So yes it needs paint

Yeeeesssssssss....... I doooooo..... ??????????

Rots faster than wood? I doubt it
Rots against cured concrete ? Maybe.
Rots against treated Lumber ? Sure
Electrolysis with dissimilar metals ... Yes

Vinyl Coated coil fades and stains just like a vinyl window does..
You really wouldn't want to paint aluminum would you ? that never works for long.

So what's your point.. Are you saying wood brickmould in a basement egress window that will probably get sprinklers on it every summer is a better idea?.

Oh wait ..... Just reread your post .... Every window was rotten ? not the coil stock?

ccappaul

· #10 · Oct 16, 2013

ccappaul said:
Build your Jambs the same net size as the window. screw them to the window sides with some galvanized strap....

Thinking about it the last ones I did similar to that....

You have 1 1/2 " clearance . Build the jamb so the window slips into it... screw through the sides of the window into the jamb (never through the sill) ((NEVER)).. .Takes up 3/4 " of your space

CompleteW&D

· #11 · Oct 16, 2013

If you're going to cap the exterior with aluminum coil, don't use treated wood. The chemicals in the treated wood will corrode the aluminum. As for wood rotting under the aluminum capping, there are reasons it does.

One, if you do a poor capping job in general and it leaks, yes.... the wood will rot. If you cap correctly, starting from the bottom sill (with back bends which act like flashing), then cap the sides, overlapping your back bends, then cap the top (overlapping your back bends from the side legs).... your wood will stay nice and dry and should never rot.

As for the painted versus PVC coil conundrum.... Painted coil will chalk and fade terribly over time. Especially, west facing exposures. PVC coated coil can scratch and discolor over time as well.

I've found that the "No Mar" style coil from Quality Edge or the G-8 from Alside (which is essentially the same as the No Mar) seem to look better for a LOT longer amount of time. They are also coated, but it's a really fine pebble type finish rather than the striated type finish on PVC coil. It is also nearly impossible to scratch. I've been using No Mar from QE on windows, since it came out back in the mid 90's. I've also started using it almost exclusively on soffit and fascia jobs as well.

I just sold a customer the last four windows in her house recently. The Bright White QE No Mar that I used 8 years ago, and then again 3 years ago to be nearly as bright and clean as the new coil we used a month ago. The No Mar from 8 years ago was showing a little bit of age, but not nearly as bad as painted or PVC would have looked IMHO. The No Mar from 3 years ago, looked nearly identical to the new.

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tccoggs

· #12 · Oct 16, 2013

Solid azek/PVC.

The sides you see are actually scraps of the pre made azek corner boards, so all you need is a piece of 5/4 for the sill and a strip of 3/4 at the top. I use PL poly and tapcons to hold the frame to the concrete and then insert the window into the frame. All stainless screws and should have nothing to worry about for years.

Sorry for the poor pic. Taken at night but everyone who sees this method loves to look. This is my own house and the windows are right on the patio so it had to look good. Already had spent the dough to do the cultured stone so a few more bucks for the Azek wouldn't hurt.

Window Sash window Room Floor Hardwood

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jlsconstruction

· #13 · Oct 16, 2013

CompleteW&D said:
One, if you do a poor capping job in general and it leaks, yes.... the wood will rot. If you cap correctly, starting from the bottom sill (with back bends which act like flashing), then cap the sides, overlapping your back bends, then cap the top (overlapping your back bends from the side legs).... your wood will stay nice and dry and should never rot.

I agree with almost everything you said except even when back bending you're still going to have the corners relying on caulk that will fail eventually. Then water goes in and stays in.

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CompleteW&D

· #14 · Oct 16, 2013

jlsconstruction said:
I agree with almost everything you said except even when back bending you're still going to have the corners relying on caulk that will fail eventually. Then water goes in and stays in.

Sure, but if you use a high quality sealant, not cheap silicone, and don't rely on the caulk joint to be a "seal" (in other words, your metal overlaps with the back bends and you're not caulking and open joint where the metal doesn't meet).... you're going to get years and years out of a well wrapped window.

But, with all of these new PVC products popping up almost daily, the price on them may get to the point where quality metal work is a thing of the past.

jlsconstruction

· #15 · Oct 16, 2013

CompleteW&D said:
Sure, but if you use a high quality sealant, not cheap silicone, and don't rely on the caulk joint to be a "seal" (in other words, your metal overlaps with the back bends and you're not caulking and open joint where the metal doesn't meet).... you're going to get years and years out of a well wrapped window.

Yeah but you will always have the corners of the lap cut, so you will be relying on caulk. It is impossible to rap a sill and molding and have 100% of a lap. It will never happen.

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CompleteW&D

· #16 · Oct 16, 2013

jlsconstruction said:
Yeah but you will always have the corners of the lap cut, so you will be relying on caulk. It is impossible to rap a sill and molding and have 100% of a lap. It will never happen.

I agree. That's why I think the PVC will eventually be the way to go totally. Unfortunately, it's either white or if available pre-finished in colors, incredibly expensive.

Hopefully, the prices will start to fall.

:thumbsup:

Reactions: 1

WarnerConstInc.

· #17 · Oct 16, 2013

CompleteW&D said:
I agree. That's why I think the PVC will eventually be the way to go totally. Unfortunately, it's either white or if available pre-finished in colors, incredibly expensive.

Hopefully, the prices will start to fall.

:thumbsup:

The pre finished excell was no more then 5% above the cost of white.

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