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Capra Aegagrus
Remodeler
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I'm going to buck the popular opinion here and say that I see nothing inherently wrong with flipping, as long as it's done without fraudulence. Sure, to make any money at it you're not going to be doing top-drawer work, but the same goes for churning out tract houses.

As for what the OP pays his "contractor", that's none of our business. Keep in mind that one of the primary reasons we don't discuss pricing here is because of the confusing plethora of regional and other variables that make it virtually impossible for someone in location/market A to say what's appropriate for location/market B. If both parties are happy, everything's done legally and the result is a usable, sellable product, shame on you all for being against private enterprise just because it's maybe not quite the way you choose to do business.
 

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Demo
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860 Posts
I don’t disagree in general, but neither party is happy, Tin.

The contractor feels like he deserves more, and the developer/owner doesn’t want to pay it.
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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6,514 Posts
I personally have nothing against what's popularly called "flipping", or my preferred terminology, rehabilitating our existing housing stock, as opposed to tearing it down and building something else.

I love taking an old, tired building and turning it into a showpiece.

Probably why I've always been more drawn to remodel work than new construction.

I have a great dislike for modern "flippers", and their $!tty building and business practices.

Heres a commercial space I rebuilt.

Before:
Interior design Wood Architecture Floor Beam
 

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Capra Aegagrus
Remodeler
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25,230 Posts
I don’t disagree in general, but neither party is happy, Tin.

The contractor feels like he deserves more, and the developer/owner doesn’t want to pay it.
Hey, that's the squirrel cage we all live in. Either party is free to walk. I don't have a problem with that.
 

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GC
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1,028 Posts
I'm going to buck the popular opinion here and say that I see nothing inherently wrong with flipping, as long as it's done without fraudulence. Sure, to make any money at it you're not going to be doing top-drawer work, but the same goes for churning out tract houses.

As for what the OP pays his "contractor", that's none of our business. Keep in mind that one of the primary reasons we don't discuss pricing here is because of the confusing plethora of regional and other variables that make it virtually impossible for someone in location/market A to say what's appropriate for location/market B. If both parties are happy, everything's done legally and the result is a usable, sellable product, shame on you all for being against private enterprise just because it's maybe not quite the way you choose to do business.
I think the issue is the term. Flipping has come to mean shoddy work and sub standard materials. The last flip I was involved in the owner didn't know dirt about construction, but he was an honest fellow who never tried to haggle price or use cheap material. I gave him a ton of free advice along with the work I did. When the house sold he sent me a $3k spiff.
The finished product was outstanding.
 

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Remodel
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Buddy of mine ran a flip crew. He was a perfectionist and did beautiful work, but no high end finishes, etc. Worked for the same investor for years. 14 HR days, 7 days a week until completed. He was shirt changed on it, looking back.
 

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GC
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Work is work. Doesn't matter if it's a mansion, a flip, or a homeless shelter. I don't question what my clients are going to do with their property when I'm done. Keep it, sell it, give it away, burn it down. As long as I'm paid promptly and in full I don't care.
 

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Demo
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I think @texasflipper left us to fight this bloody war of housing stock rehabilitation semantics cold and alone. Maybe that was the intent all along. His username is very on the nose.

People who drop in with weird questions, the sort of questions that make thread lockers salivate, usually have on the nose usernames.

Take that drop ceiling rivet guy. No, that’s his name. With regrets drop ceiling

BTW, this is what a moderator looks like in real life:
514319
:LOL:
 

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Custom
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Hello, I'm new here. I've looked around, but I'm not familiar with the site so if I'm posting this in the wrong section, perhaps it could be moved to the appropriate location. I'll also apologize for being longwinded.

I do extensive remodels to 4 or 5 homes a year. These are almost always 40's/50's pier and beam, 2/1, 3/1 and occasionally 3/2 floorplans. Modest single story houses built in the post war boom with 8' ceilings, gabled roofs and 800 to 1200 square feet. Labor is plentiful and pretty cheap here at about $15/hr for helpers here and $25/hr for more skilled.

I've had a contractor I've worked with for 5 or 6 years continuously and he's as fair and honest as anyone I've ever met. We agree on the required work in packages as we go from start to finish, so we may complete 10 or 12 contracts per job. He and his ever evolving crew work for me 75% of the time and the other 25% is other work he's picked up or that I've referred him to. I give him the time to do other work without complaint because it usually is at a better rate of pay and I want him to do well.

I buy 100% of the materials right down to nails and screws. Every house we do, I struggle with fair labor costs on cement board siding. Leveling, subfloors, framing, roof decking, joist/rafter repair, insulation, sheathing, windows and doors, drywall, texture, RTO cabinets, etc we are dialed in and we almost always agree on contract amounts. From the point of passing the house wrap inspection, to the ready to paint phase is where I struggle.

Using Hardie (sheets with board and batten or planks) I always find myself starting at $4.00 per square foot of exterior including enclosing soffits where they were previously exposed rafter tails. This wouldn't include caulking or painting, just the install of the fiber cement siding, trim, soffit and fascia. I usually request a different treatment somewhere like on a porch or gable to mix it up but nothing that seems to add significant time. At my rate, he would typically have a $4500 week using two helpers with the siding on a typical sized house we do. This always represents the biggest individual contract we do, but he always feels like I'm trying to beat him down on this phase of the work. Like everyone, he hates the dangerous dust, the heavy weight and the expensive blades. He wants to be at $6.00 a foot, so the week long siding job would pay say $7000 when on average our labor costs are typically about $3500 a week when averaged out.

Am I wrong thinking an extra $1000 in labor for the week where he does siding is reasonable versus what he'd be charging if it were any other phase of the project? Also, I farm out plumbing, electrical and mechanical, but he's doing virtually 100% of everything else including composition roofs. This allows him to work 52 weeks a year with regular draws and contract payments constantly. It also allows me obvious benefits as the work is always correct and the inspections are always passed the first time.

Any constructive input is appreciated.
You're likely looking at this wrong... it's ONE part of the contracts you work with him on... you're getting a deal on the other parts at $15/$25/hour... it averages out... the important part is that he is a reliable sub, that does the work you request in the time-frame you request it and has a track record that apparently makes you money... that said, the CODB goes up, and the customer pays in the end... it sounds more to me that he's been the one getting the raw end of the deal up to this point, and might be at a point where he realizes it...

What you have to ask yourself is, is it really worth it to lose such an asset to your company? You can roll the dice on someone else or find a number that you both feel is fair....
 

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I'm still stuck by his statement that labor is plentiful where he is. Where in Yahoo is he located? From his user name I'd guess somewhere in Texas.
 

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GC
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Wow, down right acceptable that's a high mark. I've been saving for 10+ years to start building or flipping. I have the scratch but these wannbe's ruin that middle ground to get your feet wet. I'm going to deliver a home to a family to live in for 20+ years. You do your acceptable work, I'll stick with the upper crust and deliver a product very few can produce. Oh, and my guys get paid holidays, vacation, company boat day at my camp, yearly bonuses ranging 4-8 weeks of pay.,

I'd rather fail doing it right than make a fortune treating people like crap. YMMV.
Acceptable is exactly that, acceptable, the work was done to industry standards.
 

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Super Moderator
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10,680 Posts
Tried my hand at flipping recently. Just closed last week, finally!
My biggest issue was drawing the line on what needed to be done, versus what I wanted to do. The first day, I made it clear to my employees, and my wife, that we were only gonna do what needed done. I then promptly went and spent the next few hours doing demo that was out of the scope, as I went looking for a cool pocket door that had been buried for decades.
I coined the term, "flipocrite" to describe someone who has these same tendencies.
 

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294 Posts
Warren, did you do ok money wise? I have a few I'm looking at but prices are just crazy. A few on my street went for cheap and I'm kicking myself for not jumping.
 

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Kowboy
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2,473 Posts
Keep in mind that one of the primary reasons we don't discuss pricing here is because of the confusing plethora of regional and other variables that make it virtually impossible for someone in location/market A to say what's appropriate for location/market B. If both parties are happy, everything's done legally and the result is a usable, sellable product, shame on you all for being against private enterprise just because it's maybe not quite the way you choose to do business.
Pfffttt. The reason pricing isn't discussed here is because the lawyers for the owners of this site forbid it. They don't want any discussion that even remotely smells of collusion, price fixing, or restraint of trade. Construction work or websites, you don't take unnecessary risks with the feds.
 

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Capra Aegagrus
Remodeler
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25,230 Posts
Pfffttt. The reason pricing isn't discussed here is because the lawyers for the owners of this site forbid it. They don't want any discussion that even remotely smells of collusion, price fixing, or restraint of trade. Construction work or websites, you don't take unnecessary risks with the feds.
You have quite an imagination. Neither Nathan (the original founder of this site) nor the current owners ever gave us such direction.

That policy exists simply because of a consensus among the mods that such threads almost inevitably lead to non-productive misinformation and quarreling. We don't need that here.
 

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Super Moderator
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10,680 Posts
Pfffttt. The reason pricing isn't discussed here is because the lawyers for the owners of this site forbid it. They don't want any discussion that even remotely smells of collusion, price fixing, or restraint of trade. Construction work or websites, you don't take unnecessary risks with the feds.
This might belong in the tinfoil hat thread. Shall I move it for you?
 

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General Contractor
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8,083 Posts
Does Tree Fiddy per Square still work for a rought estimate around here?
 

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Remodel
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Tried my hand at flipping recently. Just closed last week, finally!
My biggest issue was drawing the line on what needed to be done, versus what I wanted to do. The first day, I made it clear to my employees, and my wife, that we were only gonna do what needed done. I then promptly went and spent the next few hours doing demo that was out of the scope, as I went looking for a cool pocket door that had been buried for decades.
I coined the term, "flipocrite" to describe someone who has these same tendencies.
Just stop it.
 
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