[Tommy C]

Hey guys..

Here's a question for u flooring guys, just out of pure curiosity.

On new construction, what has become the standard for bathroom/kitchen tile floors? They don't do subfloor, tar paper, wire lathe, and mud mix anymore right?? On new construction, that is.

What is the standard practice on new construction? Thanks!

-TC

 

[Floorwizard]

Mostly they use their subfloor of plywood, and then ut another layer of 1/2 or so as a substrate for the tile.

 

[Shaughnn]

Cementitious Board Units (CBUs) like Hardibacker, Wonderboard, Durrock, Firbrerock, etc. set over a bed of UN-modified thinset and screwed or nailed to subfloor which has been fortified to support the weight without deflection. I prefer Hardibacker for it's strength, consistency and clean workability over the "crumbly" materials like Wonderboard and Durrock. Also, as CBU's don't contribute to the structural strength of the floor I prefer 1/4" material over 1/2" material to reduce transitional problems.
At least, that's what I'm seeing here in California.
Shaughnn

 

[Donedat]

"Standard" practice really depends on your local building codes. Although there are similar practices, it can differ quite a bit depending on whether you are east or west of the Mississippi or even which side of the Mason Dixon line.

I've seen everything from the typical tile underlayments to mortar beds. I've even seen this orange waffley plastic stuff that some guys like for a tile substrate. :Thumbs: I've even seen them use particle board under tile. :evil: I think I've even seen folks go right down to the subflloor

Being a hardwood guy myself, I'll put hardwood in the baths and kitchen in a heart beat. :Thumbs: I just throw in disclaimers that would encourage them to install higher velocity exhaust fans and install windows for greater ventilation (sp?)

 

[adamsb]

is it a slab or plywood?

 

[Donedat]

Depends if you are in the basement or on an above grade floor.

 

[carpenter 1st]

either way , if your code doesn't require concrete backerboard, marine grade plywood is excellent in damp locations. and most lumberyards have it or can get it.

 

[adamsb]

You mean treated or marine. There is a difference. Actually a huge financial difference.

 

[adamsb]

Hey guys..

Here's a question for u flooring guys, just out of pure curiosity.

On new construction, what has become the standard for bathroom/kitchen tile floors? They don't do subfloor, tar paper, wire lathe, and mud mix anymore right?? On new construction, that is.

What is the standard practice on new construction? Thanks!

-TC

Yha we still do mud set down here....In some situations.

 

[HuckabayHolding]

either way , if your code doesn't require concrete backerboard, marine grade plywood is excellent in damp locations. and most lumberyards have it or can get it.

Im in Kansas too, and let me tell you Plywood is NEVER (i cant stress this enough) recommended as underlayment for ceramic tile. Wood accepts moisture and with any temperature fluctuation you get expansion and contraction up to like 10% or so (with plywood) and ceramic tile can only handle 2% movement. What will happen is the grout will first start cracking and falling out and your tiles can possibly pop off. Thats the physics you cant get around. If you have a plywood subfloor, I recommend wonderboard (which was the first company to ever make concrete underlayment in the 60's). Durrock is good too, however I do not care for hardyboard at all (James Hardi Products.) They had some failures in the early 90's that I know of locally, and unless they changed the composition of the board I don't recommend it. The traditional composition of cement boards like durrock and wonderboard are a sure bet. 1/2" is recommended, however Ive used 1/4" on my floor personally and haven't had any trouble, but it's not strong enough should you get a lot of movement in your subfloor. You should thinset it down, however I only recommend fully modified latex thinset personally, rather than unmodified underneath and modified over. Make sure you get a full 13% latex modification as well, because there are 7% modifications on the market, and they don't perform like a good 13%. If you don't know how to tell the difference in percents added, just go with the most expensive, because it's basically 1/2 the amount of latex, therefore less cost. Always screw, never nail is what's recommended, however I have personally nailed in my own home, knowing if it fails, I'll redo it...chances are slim I'll rip it out before it fails anyway lol. Some underlayments have marked where to screw, if not about every 12" square. Good luck

 

[Floorwizard]

Plywood is NEVER (i cant stress this enough) recommended as underlayment for ceramic tile.

Are you saying that 1 1/8 plywood is not acceptable substrate?

 

[Tom R]

Plywood movement 10%??, - - umm, - - (k)not, - - plywood is a standard substrate for tile, - - been using it for years, - - where in the world do you come up with these faulty numbers, - - even 'solid' wood only moves/shrinks about 5% (and that's 'initial' movement), - - and that's across it's 'width', - - plywood is cross-grained specifically to alleviate/eliminate any such movement.

You've got to either double-check your informational sources or stick to talking/selling to the 'less-informed'.


P.S. Don't mean to insinuate you're not knowledgeable, - - I'm sure you are, - - but you're 'dead-out' wrong on this one.

 

[K custom home]

Don't mean to jump into the mix here, but I have to strongly side with a concrete base (backer board). Never put a quality tile or stone job on plywood even if it's 2" thick. Moisture is the key here. Wood does not like moisture.

 

[Floorwizard]

I would agree that a RECOMMENDED substrate would be concrete board.

Although it has to be said that Plywood CAN be an APPROVED substrate under certain conditions.

 

[Tom R]

Don't mean to jump into the mix here, but I have to strongly side with a concrete base (backer board). Never put a quality tile or stone job on plywood even if it's 2" thick. Moisture is the key here. Wood does not like moisture.

By all means, - - always feel free to jump into the mix here, - - Exterior plywood (made with water-proof glue) is no stranger to moisture, - - a good tile job is 'waterproof'.

Do you also use backer board as your 'roof' decking??, - - lot of moisture up there!!

 

[K custom home]

OK Tom

 

[adamsb]

By all means, - - always feel free to jump into the mix here, - - Exterior plywood (made with water-proof glue) is no stranger to moisture, - - a good tile job is 'waterproof'.

Do you also use backer board as your 'roof' decking??, - - lot of moisture up there!!

Ok Im Jumping in too. It does not mattter if your roof shingles move around a little now does it. But what happpens if your tile moves?

Man, go in there put you some backer board on your plywood and lay the tile and get out. Oh.....Get paid too, or are you the home owner?, I cant remember now...
Its funny I did a job about 3 weeks ago and while I was installing the wood upstairs I walked around in the bathroom that had tile straight to the plywood and it sounded like there was crushed cement under the tile. When the tile guy showed up he told the owner, to fix it, he had to take it all up and RE-DO it. anyway FYI. ..:Thumbs:

 

[Floorwizard]

Ok Im Jumping in too. It does not mattter if your roof shingles move around a little now does it. But what happpens if your tile moves?

Ha!
This is fun.
Lots of good back and forth...keep it up

 

[Teetorbilt]

I recommend marine ply for many things and it would be a good choice for your subfloor in any damp areas as the glues are waterproof and it has MORE 'stable' plys. and is less likely to degrade. It will still rot when exposed to constant moisture. I use epoxies to combat moisture, coat the floor with a 1:1, these are the most flexible then cover with the base of your choice.

I will work on using epoxies over the weekend. If you have to get this done ASAP, at least follow the directions on the can to the letter.

 

[Tom R]

Ok Im Jumping in too. It does not mattter if your roof shingles move around a little now does it. But what happpens if your tile moves?

Man, go in there put you some backer board on your plywood and lay the tile and get out. Oh.....Get paid too, or are you the home owner?, I cant remember now...
Its funny I did a job about 3 weeks ago and while I was installing the wood upstairs I walked around in the bathroom that had tile straight to the plywood and it sounded like there was crushed cement under the tile. When the tile guy showed up he told the owner, to fix it, he had to take it all up and RE-DO it. anyway FYI. ..:Thumbs:

Funny, - - I recently had to tear out a bad tile job done on a 'mud-bed', - -doesn't mean all mud-beds suck, - - I attributed it to a bad installation, - - sometimes 'common sense' heavily prevails over 'pre-determination' and 'stubborn-idiocy'!! :Thumbs:

I repeat, - - for those who can't get it through their 'skulls', - - been laying tile on plywood for 26 years now, - - up to and including the bathroom floor I'll be doing tomorrow, - - NEVER ONE SINGLE PROBLEM, - - not saying there's anything wrong with backer board, - - if nothing else, - - it's definitely at least more 'DUMMY-PROOf'!!