Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum banner

81 - 94 of 94 Posts

·
John Hyatt
Joined
·
3,658 Posts
I buy copper green by the gallon . There is no spraying it on during my jobs. Although not the high percentage it usta be a couple coats of the 10% does the job. Not true on the 0 retention but then your going to believe what you believe. Copper green has a very long, proven track record.

Thanks for the lesson on retort use. I learned that at least 20 years ago but it did fill up the page. Wrapping the transition area with a copper flat stock also has a very long track record there for anyone who cares to look it up.

There is no argument. Just the Facts. After another 20 years or so putting down and buying SA lumber that's the way I do it. Many Many times Folks have been snookered buying containers with out a middle man screening it . They have already gone to Brazil, picked it out , made a deal with the taxes for their customer. But , again, you go on with it your way.

J.
 

·
GC/carpenter
GC/Carpenter
Joined
·
41,075 Posts
Its all about retention and spraying copper green has no retention. When a posts is pressure treated its exactly that. In the old days pt lumber was kd- kilned dried because the moisture made the posts twist when the water evaporated. After KD the posts roll through what like a huge muliti - toothed stapler without the staples that opens up the lumber with the holes you see. Then they are placed in what might look like a giant decompression chamber. Thats where the posts get impregnated with the chemicals used today because of the ban the Fenceguy quotes about CCA which contains arsenate which is now banned in resi applications. Retention is the psi= pounds per square inch of treatment. Thats what you see on the tags 15- 30 etc. The higher the retention the better for ground contact. Now days they dont kiln dry or air dry at the plants thats treat lumber prior to the pressure treatment- pressure treated.... Its called planned obsolescence. This is a fact. You and John both speak of Copper green, which also had CCA Chromated Copper Arsenate in in prior to 2004. Will not work zero retention. I just had to speak out again because you are giving bogus info to people looking for something that works. You, we can argue until the end of time I owned a treatment plant in the late 80s. Retention back then was .40 psi. or LP 40. Bullet proof posts. I still like you guys, but come on, I see you wrote creosote does nothing to kill bugs? It will kill a human and an elephant but that was a funny statement...I am sober. lol. I also have a re-saw yard. By the way the timbers from Brazil were beautiful! My broker was not aware of the Brazilian governments tax that hit early 16 because of a documentary made that put pressure on the gov at the time from our government and other countries. Copper green is good for mild rot, with a wood hardener then wood bondo under windows, or even eves but not to spray on a post thats going to have seasons ans seasons of exposure. Im interested in your argument on this one. Id like to see the posts wrapped in copper as well. Here is a Post Collar Fence not that that is even the question anymore. By Fella's.


Not all species need incisions. Doug fir does due to its inability to absorb the treatment.


_____________
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Resurrecting an old thread. So where did we land on treating 6x6 posts @ ground contact area with copper green. Useful, or a waste? Assuming you're already using 6x6 ground-contact PT posts
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Anyone use something like "Henry .90 Gal. 208R Rubber Wet Patch Roof Cement" (Home Depot) where your buried 6x6 meets ground?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
30 Posts
I've seen newer ACQ 'lifetime in-ground use' 4x4 PTs rot and snap within 3 years set in concrete with nothing else done to it, (no tar/ flashing, copper green, etc).
Pre 2004 CCA, with cedar CCA I have posts 40 years old are sturdy, some have rotted and were replaced recently but %85 are solid, some are in concrete some aren't, some are barely in concrete (seems they added dirt to the mix) not sure exactly what they did but point is it's still holding up.

As mentioned, rot happens almost only at the surface where oxygen and moisture meet. Without oxygen, rot can barely occur - that's why the buried part of a rotted post is still in good shape even if it's basically buried in a water table river. Same for roots from trees that were cut down long ago - the buried roots have no rot.

That's why a lot of fence protectant products are only a small 10" collar (EDIT: aka post collar mentioned) which attaches right where the post meets the lawn/grade.

Some products are a 3 or 4 foot plastic sleeve, but you should prevent water from filling the sleeve with an included clamping gasket trim ring
http://www.removablepost.com/


or by flashing (notching a slit in the 4x4 and tucking the top of the flashing in. EDIT, if you're concerned about copper contact corrosion maybe bendable/ corrugating vinyl is preferred) or at least by caulking but that seal is likely to fail as the post in the sleeve has some wiggle room and the sealant needs to have decent expansion spec plus adhere well to wet lumber (Quad expands 3-5x and adheres very well but is not very UV resistant and thus would need to be re-caulked in about 10 years my guess).

Some sleeves don't have a trim ring and if not caulked, are open at the bottom to let water drain but water would still collect around the bottom of post unless gravel were put. With gravel at the bottom (and/or around the sides) as others mentioned, this just creates a bucket-affect. The water will still sit around the post. With the slight spacing/wiggle room the 4x4 sleeve has, and if no trim ring/sealant is used, this may allow enough air to get down the sleeve and cause rot, let alone checking in the wood within the sleeve area will soak up water instead of letting it harmlessly weep out the bottom as manufactures claim.
But with sleeves, if it rots, all you gotta do is slide the bad post out and reinstall. Auger bit to grab the broken-off post in the sleeve.

When people simply dig 3 feet and then concrete around a 4x4 and don't do anything extra at all even such as copper green, or caulking the joint, or using a post collar, the posts will rot sooner than later, and this creates the need to remove footings. A lot of people build fences this way too which is wrong, they just stick the 4x4 in concrete and that's it. There may be extractor jacks able to pull up those footings but not many people own those big hydraulic type extractors or have a place to rent one. Gotta dig craters.

With rebar and strong concrete, I don't see how it would be a problem to use concrete 4x4 posts such as these seem to be a UK thing and they will never give you a problem. can paint/stain them of course.
http://meltonbuildingsupplies.co.uk/products/fencing-timber-products/

https://www.mickgeorge.co.uk/slotted-concrete-fence-post-intermediate.html

https://www.mickgeorge.co.uk/recessed-concrete-fence-post-intermediate.html

https://bennettstimber.co.uk/products/category/fencing/posts/concrete-fence-posts1

This guy torches the 4x4 then applies henry asphalt sealer 4" exposed above grade and swears it'll last 100 years, EDIT, but a weed wacker would ruin the sealer.


There are many different schools of thought, and some may look tacky with trim rings or tar showing, but it's hard to tell the longevity since ACQ is quite new and so are some of these products.

Another option is something like OZ post. no digging, just a spike that you jackhammer or pound into the ground quickly, and the OZ post elevates the bottom of the post like a deck post anchor. However I saw a video review in 60MPH and the guy's fence is leaning bad despite manufacturer claims. With a board-on-board fence that doesn't catch wind too much, it won't be as bad, but I wouldn't risk OZ posts unless maybe a small picket fence or something.


Lastly I'll mention no-concrete method. Which I have done and have faith in for what it is. If you Do concrete in, I still suggest the 3-4 foot sleeves (plus sealant the tops or clamping gasket trim ring), so when ever it does rot out, and it will one day, footings don't have to be dug out, just slide the old post out of the $15 sleeve. But if someone had done it with concrete and it failed, you can avoid digging most of the footings by simply putting new posts between the old posts and cutting the old posts flush to the ground. Minus corners and gates of course, and also this will create the corner panels looking half the width of the others but it is what it is to avoid all footings removal.
I get a 10 foot 4x4 and dig 4 feet for a 6' high fence. Then use a steel tamping rod to tamp the F out of the same soil that was dug out, no gravel or crush or anything, just tamped dirt. 4 feet deep, tamped every few inches of backfill and it won't budge. If it does lean a bit in some years, all you gotta do is bang a PT spike shim down along side it. Again it may eventually lean, but it might not - concrete won't lean but 4' deep and well-tamped might not either and can be a quick shim fix to correct. This is not done as a hack or corner cut, it's an option to avoid the cost and labor of concrete at the expense that there's a slight chance it could lean (or that they don't even care if it leans 2" 10 years from now). You can also put a PT 2x10 24" nailed to the 4x4 and buried a foot down so that it prevents leaning, (a wooden version of the metal Fence Fins product which do the same thing).
So, no concrete but with a post collar or tar/asphalt/flashing, but a tar application is likely to get destroyed by a weed wacker.
If it ever does rot, it can be wiggled out pretty easy or use a car jack, since there's no concrete.

Having said all that, my 'forum answer' would be to concrete-in a sleeve (so rotted post can be slid out easily in 50+ years or whenever, plus the concrete won't allow lean because I know I could get flack for even mentioning a no-concrete method) , plus with the clamping gasket trim ring/flashing or at least a good sealant. Oh, or concrete/metal posts ok.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
30 Posts
oh BTW re: copper green or coppercoat leaching into soil being the only it provides: the stuff is suitable for in-water use so I don't think it's meant to leave the wood and stay in the surrounding soil.

Also the pdfs suggest to soak, not paint-on the stuff especially for thick 4x4 and for best results.
But I'd still rather use a post collar or clamping trim collar with a gasket behind it , or just a bead of sticky sealant to prevent water from getting behind said collar or down into 3-4 ft sleeve.
 

·
GC/carpenter
GC/Carpenter
Joined
·
41,075 Posts
I've seen newer ACQ 'lifetime in-ground use' 4x4 PTs rot and snap within 3 years set in concrete with nothing else done to it, (no tar/ flashing, copper green, etc).
Pre 2004 CCA, with cedar CCA I have posts 40 years old are sturdy, some have rotted and were replaced recently but %85 are solid, some are in concrete some aren't, some are barely in concrete (seems they added dirt to the mix) not sure exactly what they did but point is it's still holding up.

As mentioned, rot happens almost only at the surface where oxygen and moisture meet. Without oxygen, rot can barely occur - that's why the buried part of a rotted post is still in good shape even if it's basically buried in a water table river. Same for roots from trees that were cut down long ago - the buried roots have no rot.

That's why a lot of fence protectant products are only a small 10" collar (EDIT: aka post collar mentioned) which attaches right where the post meets the lawn/grade.

Some products are a 3 or 4 foot plastic sleeve, but you should prevent water from filling the sleeve with an included clamping gasket trim ring
http://www.removablepost.com/


or by flashing (notching a slit in the 4x4 and tucking the top of the flashing in. EDIT, if you're concerned about copper contact corrosion maybe bendable/ corrugating vinyl is preferred) or at least by caulking but that seal is likely to fail as the post in the sleeve has some wiggle room and the sealant needs to have decent expansion spec plus adhere well to wet lumber (Quad expands 3-5x and adheres very well but is not very UV resistant and thus would need to be re-caulked in about 10 years my guess).

Some sleeves don't have a trim ring and if not caulked, are open at the bottom to let water drain but water would still collect around the bottom of post unless gravel were put. With gravel at the bottom (and/or around the sides) as others mentioned, this just creates a bucket-affect. The water will still sit around the post. With the slight spacing/wiggle room the 4x4 sleeve has, and if no trim ring/sealant is used, this may allow enough air to get down the sleeve and cause rot, let alone checking in the wood within the sleeve area will soak up water instead of letting it harmlessly weep out the bottom as manufactures claim.
But with sleeves, if it rots, all you gotta do is slide the bad post out and reinstall. Auger bit to grab the broken-off post in the sleeve.

When people simply dig 3 feet and then concrete around a 4x4 and don't do anything extra at all even such as copper green, or caulking the joint, or using a post collar, the posts will rot sooner than later, and this creates the need to remove footings. A lot of people build fences this way too which is wrong, they just stick the 4x4 in concrete and that's it. There may be extractor jacks able to pull up those footings but not many people own those big hydraulic type extractors or have a place to rent one. Gotta dig craters.

With rebar and strong concrete, I don't see how it would be a problem to use concrete 4x4 posts such as these seem to be a UK thing and they will never give you a problem. can paint/stain them of course.
http://meltonbuildingsupplies.co.uk/products/fencing-timber-products/

https://www.mickgeorge.co.uk/slotted-concrete-fence-post-intermediate.html

https://www.mickgeorge.co.uk/recessed-concrete-fence-post-intermediate.html

https://bennettstimber.co.uk/products/category/fencing/posts/concrete-fence-posts1

This guy torches the 4x4 then applies henry asphalt sealer 4" exposed above grade and swears it'll last 100 years, EDIT, but a weed wacker would ruin the sealer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpEXfrqkd8g&feature=youtu.be


There are many different schools of thought, and some may look tacky with trim rings or tar showing, but it's hard to tell the longevity since ACQ is quite new and so are some of these products.

Another option is something like OZ post. no digging, just a spike that you jackhammer or pound into the ground quickly, and the OZ post elevates the bottom of the post like a deck post anchor. However I saw a video review in 60MPH and the guy's fence is leaning bad despite manufacturer claims. With a board-on-board fence that doesn't catch wind too much, it won't be as bad, but I wouldn't risk OZ posts unless maybe a small picket fence or something.


Lastly I'll mention no-concrete method. Which I have done and have faith in for what it is. If you Do concrete in, I still suggest the 3-4 foot sleeves (plus sealant the tops or clamping gasket trim ring), so when ever it does rot out, and it will one day, footings don't have to be dug out, just slide the old post out of the $15 sleeve. But if someone had done it with concrete and it failed, you can avoid digging most of the footings by simply putting new posts between the old posts and cutting the old posts flush to the ground. Minus corners and gates of course, and also this will create the corner panels looking half the width of the others but it is what it is to avoid all footings removal.
I get a 10 foot 4x4 and dig 4 feet for a 6' high fence. Then use a steel tamping rod to tamp the F out of the same soil that was dug out, no gravel or crush or anything, just tamped dirt. 4 feet deep, tamped every few inches of backfill and it won't budge. If it does lean a bit in some years, all you gotta do is bang a PT spike shim down along side it. Again it may eventually lean, but it might not - concrete won't lean but 4' deep and well-tamped might not either and can be a quick shim fix to correct. This is not done as a hack or corner cut, it's an option to avoid the cost and labor of concrete at the expense that there's a slight chance it could lean (or that they don't even care if it leans 2" 10 years from now). You can also put a PT 2x10 24" nailed to the 4x4 and buried a foot down so that it prevents leaning, (a wooden version of the metal Fence Fins product which do the same thing).
So, no concrete but with a post collar or tar/asphalt/flashing, but a tar application is likely to get destroyed by a weed wacker.
If it ever does rot, it can be wiggled out pretty easy or use a car jack, since there's no concrete.

Having said all that, my 'forum answer' would be to concrete-in a sleeve (so rotted post can be slid out easily in 50+ years or whenever, plus the concrete won't allow lean because I know I could get flack for even mentioning a no-concrete method) , plus with the clamping gasket trim ring/flashing or at least a good sealant. Oh, or concrete/metal posts ok.

a sleeve creates a bucket to hold water in. I wouldn't recommend that.

AND

Actually I buried 2 4x6 .40 ACQ posts in the mud, under my AC condenser with sprinkler irrigation keeping the ground consistently wet. FOR 9 YEARS! Just a small amount of rot on the end. And Coppergreen works best when used in a garden sprayer. Or even the can like this.



Mike.
_______________
 

·
GC/carpenter
GC/Carpenter
Joined
·
41,075 Posts
Mike, would using that spray can for buried 6x6 PT posts at ground contact level realistically show a real world benefit?


It's not the can it's the can added to the already treated Lumber. I did call the company and had a lengthy conversion with them. The said that stuff will keep fungus away as long as the ACQ will. Remember it won't rot without organic living matter.


Mike.
_______________
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Everyone in my area seems to set them in concrete, with top top cast into a dish (which holds water), and then tops with dirt, to make sure there's plenty of microbes to get started on the decomposition.

I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but I'd swear the local fence and deck guys do it on purpose, so half of the wood structures blow over with every big storm.

That said, Occam's razor would suggest that it's more likely that they just do it because that's the way it's done around here...

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
30 Posts
was watching this and learned that 1,600+ years ago, Venice Italy is was built on top of 10 million tree trunks. "They don't rot because there's no oxygen".


Would like to know how the transition from the submerged wood and the concrete foundations of buildings doesn't let air in for 1600 years to cause rot.


 
81 - 94 of 94 Posts
Top