What's the substrate?

 

To me, marble has a big grief factor.

The floor has to be stiffer for marble so floor joist span is important.

Material cost is about 2 -4 times a good porcelain.

Dirt and grit affect marble more.

Stains

I'd choose a look-a-like porcelain ,pocket the difference and go out with the wife on the money saved.

 

Not worried about the marble getting scratched to rat sh!t?

 

I would tend to agree, except that it will look like what it is.....fake marble. I've seen white marble in 100yr old tenements that has been let's say "less than cared for", and it still looks magnificent.

IMHO, I see it like leather, copper, wood, and other natural materials. It patina's and changes with age and wear, and just keeps looking great.
You are never going to get the rich, luxuriant look of marble with porcelain. But hey .....everybody's doin it.

Plus, in my experience, only spendy porcelain has even a chance at looking half as good as marble. If it is much cheaper, than it will look "much cheaper".

 

I am very concerned about it getting scratched and/or stained, which is why this question has come up. Yes, the porcelain is cheaper but not by much. Regardless, we have a million bucks in this house so I'm definitely not looking to save a few hundred or even thousand on cheaper tile. If the marble will hold up, I would buy and use it without hesitation. My concerns are whether or not marble is ever a good choice for a foyer that is your every day entrance and for a family who has kids and doesn't treat their house like a museum.

As for the substrate, that is TBA...I just ripped up ceramic tile, thinset, and even took up the subfloor. I am now down to the 150 year old heart pine planks which are laid over the joists. I was in the process of determining the best way to stabilize the floor for marble (was leaning towards subfloor and ditra) when my wife popped this one on me as an option.

I know the porcelain looks like fake marble and that KILLS me but I am wondering if the "fake" marble will look better than the real marble a few years down the road. If you guys think marble will hold up I'll do that for looks but if it is not wise for an everyday entrance, I'll probably opt for porcelain.

Thanks again!

 

As for the substrate, ...I just ripped up ceramic tile, thinset, and even took up the subfloor. I am now down to the 150 year old heart pine planks which are laid over the joists.

So the substrate is wood.

Skip the marble. Not worth it.

 

Marble will hold up if the floor is solid. You'll just have to seal every so often, depending on the sealer you use.

And I'd go with a gray grout. The white carrera has gray veins going through it so it would match.

 

Crema........powder room off kitchen.....110yr old house....1/2" hardibacker over heartpine w/ 2 1/2"GRK's into joists.....Mapei Ultraflex - white.....grout to match tile......2 dudes in house.....1 is rough,unshaven heathen.........1 is 6 yr old with little respect for marble.......never sealed (contactors homelazy disease) .....7 years later...................gorgeoulicious!

Go marble...the missus will love ya for it.

 

Wow! you have 3 urinals that look like guitars! :laughing:

 

Marble..! marble ! Marble !

Carrera would be real Nice

 

Since money is no object then do it. You'll have to maintain it. Maybe have a pro marble guy polish and seal it from time to time.

But a hundred year old house? The hundred year old houses have 100 year old building standards. Not always the best floor framing or load design. Usually the floor is roly-poly or sagging. But it could work.

Plywood and Ditra sounds good. Here's another option. Strip out the heartwood pine and sell it. Put in a mud bed or 2x ply with Ditra or ply with CBD.

A marble floor for your first project? Must be a labor of love. Get a leveling system to help you out.

 

Thanks for the responses. Yes, this is aggressive for my first project. I'll be honest...I had a couple professionals quote the price and they are trying to capitalize on the fact that I CAN pay a premium. I refuse to give in to that. I priced the supplies and I could buy a saw for $1000, order 3 full sets of tile and ditra, screw up every one, order a 4th set, and still not lose any money over what they are trying to charge me.

I'm doing my research and will take my time. I have faith in myself, although a few of you have raised second guesses. I figure if I can read a book and watch videos on how to do a new surgery and successfully do it the next day in the OR then I should be able to carefully research this and get a good result. If I'm totally nuts though and this is completely impossible, don't hesitate to let me know!

 

If I'm totally nuts though and this is completely impossible, don't hesitate to let me know!

It's not rocket surgery but you do have to understand how to tile....and I don't mean the mundane, child-like task of putting a tile into some kind of adhesive on the floor.

Your minimum deflection ratio for the framing under the foyer should be L/720. And that's a minimum. There's no magical bag of thinset or enchanted fabric that's going to change the substrate's flex.

If your framing is up to par, and you don't mind the occasional maintenance that any natural stone product will need, have at it.

Learn the procedures of how to install first, that's all :thumbsup:

 

I like that answer, Angus! Here is what I am dealing with structurally (I just went and crawled around and measured)...

After ripping up the old ceramic tile, thinset, and subfloor I am left with heart pine planks over 2x10 joists on 16 inch centers with an 11'2" span between supports. The joists appear very solid.

I also have some leveling issues I haven't measured out perfectly yet, but am open to suggestions on how to deal with them and at what stage.

I have been considering ripping up the planks and starting over vs. keeping the planks. If I keep them, I was planning on subfloor over the planks, thinset, ditra, thinset, tile. Thoughts?

 

If you could sister in 2x10's on at least every other joist under the foyer, you'd be real close to the minimum. I'd remove the planks and add 3/4" T&G. An additional layer of 1/2" EGP and you are good to tile. If leveling is a problem, a mud bed fixes the issue in 1 step. If you are not confident with floating that much, or the floor height would be too dramatic, go with prime and self leveler. You could then do a thin crack isolation membrane using a liquid like Mapei Mapelastic CI or a sheet membrane like NobleSeal TS. Both are very thin and won't raise the floor height.

I'd definitely remove the planks, add T&G and the 1/2" ply. The rest is up to you but at least at that point your subfloor will be sufficient enough for whatever you install.

 

If you could sister in 2x10's on at least every other joist under the foyer, you'd be real close to the minimum. I'd remove the planks and add 3/4" T&G. An additional layer of 1/2" EGP and you are good to tile. If leveling is a problem, a mud bed fixes the issue in 1 step. If you are not confident with floating that much, or the floor height would be too dramatic, go with prime and self leveler. You could then do a thin crack isolation membrane using a liquid like Mapei Mapelastic CI or a sheet membrane like NobleSeal TS. Both are very thin and won't raise the floor height.

I'd definitely remove the planks, add T&G and the 1/2" ply. The rest is up to you but at least at that point your subfloor will be sufficient enough for whatever you install.

Pretty much exactly what I'd do. For a beginner I wouldn't even think about a mud bed if you have access to SLC. Follow the directions EXACTLY on the bag of slc! Do not use even lukewarm water - the warmer the water the less working time. A newbie needs all the time he can get lol. Considering the substrate flatness needed for stone and tight joints you'd be waaay ahead going that route.

 

No ditra? Why remove the T&G planks and put down new ones? Just because they are old?

 

Why Ditra? What does it offer that is so special?

3/4" T&G is a stronger substrate than individual planks.

 

That's one hell of a floor Angus. You could tile that thing in Saltines and they'd last for 200 years.

 

That's the point. However, it's not far off what the minimum specs are recommended by the "industry".

 

I like natural stone over look a likes as well. I did however find a pretty nice fake from Dal tile!

 

Yep, that's Navelli Carrera Star. I've worked with it a couple of times, nice stuff. But not much variation in the veining. BUT.....who's gonna notice besides us? :whistling

 

With that spacing and span any type of fir 2x10 #2 or better is all ready stiffer than 1/720. If your old joists are a full 2" (roughsawn) thats even better:thumbsup:

 

With that spacing and span any type of fir 2x10 #2 or better is all ready stiffer than 1/720.

Not quite, It's still in the L/680 range. And don't forget, L/720 is MINIMUM.

 

Angus you must be figuring in some insane live load on top of a 20psf dead load to come up with that.

 

Nope. My handy-dandy national forestry chart gives me L/679 for

2x10
16 OC
11'2" unsupported span
douglas fir in good condition.

 

Correct if I am wrong but i thought 1/720 only pertained to marble and 1/360 to tile?

 

L/720 for natural stone
L/360 for man-made tile

He's asking about installing marble.

 

I get my span info from awc.org/calculator

 

Ok, now that we have the floor nailed down pretty well, on to selecting tile!

I have done significant research and received mixed reviews on marble vs. porcelain. At this point I think we are planning on a compromise...honed marble. We really like marble and the honed instead of polished will be a bit more tolerant of traffic.

With that in mind, I know that there is a whole range of quality when it comes to marble. Some marbles are very soft while some are relatively hard. We really liked a bianco carrara marble from Stone Partnership, Inc (NJ). Supposedly this company is very picky about the tiles matching and quality. However, the tiles also come a bit pricey compared to others we've seen ($15.69/square foot at the first store we had price it).

There are a thousand people out there selling honed white carrara...I've seen anywhere from $6/square to $20/square. How do I decide which one? I don't want to pay more for the same product but more importantly, I don't want to try to save a few bucks/tile and end up with a softer marble or lower quality stone. Any help is appreciated.

 

IMVHO, I rely on 2 things when trying to purchase the best possible stone for the best price. Relationships and/or careful inspection.

I used to have a long-standing relationship with a great supplier built over many years, and I just knew that they would get me great stuff.

Now, I just have to go.....and see the stone for myself. Trying to order stone sight unseen is difficult without that relationship. I just sent back 3 orders of Travertine before I finally went and put my hands on the stone I wanted.......in stock somewhere.

Go put your hands on the stone you will lay. You should be able to tell which is the good stuff. In my experience, bad stone is like bad breath........very obvious. If you look at lots of different stock it should become clear which are the good ones. Consistent sizing, consistent color, lack of extreme veining.....those are a few things I look for.

Good luck......and good choice.

 

The first cake of coke that some kid spills on the floor and etches it will make you regret putting marble in an entry, with kids, in eastern VA, by a river.:blink:

 

Here, buy one of these.

http://www.granitecitytool.com/clarke-floor-polisher

 

Thanks for the responses.

BlueRidgeGreen--Do you have any places where you can reliable get good marble? You are about 2.5 hours from me so if you have a reputable person I should contact for a price quote please let me know. I have only gotten a quote from Best Tile in Richmond. Also will be checking Morris Tile in Richmond as well as L&M Tile in Mechanicsville. I'm getting them to price the tile from Stone Partnership, Inc in NJ. They are higher end for price but but all accounts seem more selective with their process. Unfortunately, I am not sure I am qualified to really tell the difference in grades of marble and figure out whether or not a few extra bucks is worth the upgrade. I'm sure I could see the difference between the worst and the best, but in the middle would probably be tough so I'll take all the help I can get.

skcolo--Thank you for your input. Yes, I might regret this. But, I haven't found porcelain that we love and we do love this SPI bianco carrara so I'd rather risk having to replace it down the road.

Are one of those floor buffers necessary/beneficial? If that is the best way to seal and protect the marble to give it the best chance of survival, I have no problem buying one. I guess that is what I have to learn about next--how to protect this floor as best I can and keep it looking good as long as it can.

Thanks again!

 

Acually, I was being a little sarcastic. Some marble etches more than others, but it's all fairly soft. I have a Makita 7" variable speed grinder that works well for polishing small areas like an entry. There are buffing pads, polishing paste, and etching removers that you can get. Lots of youtube videos you can watch.

It's a little time consuming, but not too difficult. That's probably all you will need. Just know that lots of chemicals, even vinegar, will etch the floor instantly. Be careful what you clean it with, and how you use it and you will be fine.

 

Unfortunately, this place is a vast, unforgiving desert when it comes to materials acquisition. I had a couple great ones back in NYC, but this part of Va has been tough.

I met a guy in Charlottesville a little while back who seemed like a real ace. He owns a place called Sarisand Tile, his name is Pete (i think). From what I remember he has a place in the Outer Banks too.
I have never done business with him, but I got a great first impression from him the day we met. His showroom was top-notch and I saw a bunch of pics of his tile and designs. Real nice.

As I'm typing, I'm wondering why I never got back in touch with Pete............I'm going to email him now.

 

I get a bunch of porcelain from Morris. They seem ok. $ is good, but otherwise, no stone so far. If you do use them, don't take an eye off their delivery driver. That kid wrecked something EVERY SINGLE TIME he delivered to a custom we were building. Tree, scaffold, exposed/trenched drain line......he's a menace.

Good luck.