[Roberts Ren]

Have a home that we worked on awhile back doing a interior retrim, client calls me and ask me to come look at some hardwoods that have buckled at a area where we installed some columns and bases. So I go look at it today and have a cup/buckle of about 3/16" almost a 1/4", pull it out and boom its wet.

Okay so long story short I find a few "things" that could be happening one being water getting at some windows. The house was sided about two years ago with vinyl, windows are metal w/ flange and a 1"x4" trim, now the siding has a J channel ran up to the window sitting out ontop of the 1x4 so you have gaps around every window. Now Im NOT a siding guy BUT this is no good as water can run between the old siding and vinyl causes problems just as it has done here. See water wicked in at the bottom plate and under the hardwoods. So is this normal to NOT atleast seal they gap or is this standerd practices. Homeowner wants to turn it in on his insurance BUT I think it should go on the vinyl guys insureance any advice would be great thanks

 

[Framer53]

The detail as you f=descride is actually normal. The key is what is going on behind the vinyl. that can't be answered without taking the vinyl off to determine what level of waterproofing or flashing has been done.

 

[Roberts Ren]

There is nothing behind the siding I can pull the J-Channel/Siding back a good 2 inchs and see the old siding with nothing in between, I also pulled a piece off at the bottom and its just J-channel the siding running up the wall

 

[IHI]

Nice, there has to be some sort of barrier between the old wood siding and the new vinyl since as we all know water comes through the vinyl, and with no barrier it will rot the old stuff quicker than heck. and i've got pictures to prove it since i've cussed a few freinds of mine in the business that did'nt install any sort of barrier over the old wood stuff, and just put up the vinyl:furious:

My #1 question would be.....since this is a typical wood sided house with 1x for brickmold, those all USUALLY had crown molding and flashing installed over the crown detail above the window so the original windows were flashed properly. Did the siding installers just chisel off the crown so they could cap the opening with all L shaped pieces and then laid the J channel over top of them? If so, the siding guys are 100% at fault since they knocked off the window flashing, and with no barrier and other means to flash the window, they left a nice huge void for all the water behind the siding to just come on into the wall cavities.

We just sided a house, so let me know if this is the style of ORIGINAL window trim with the 1x's and crown that probably used to be in place

We always take and knock the crown off since there's no way to make it look nice with bent aluminum..i think it looks like crap since it's just flat metal, which takes away from the "colonial" profiles milled into the crown. So we knock them off, fur out the exterior with 1x2 or 2x2 so when we just the blind stop you get a true 2" wide cap profile much like standard 2" wide brickmold. After we cap it all with bends i the metal to counter flash itself, i bend a Z shaped piece seperate or bend a lip into the top piece for a built in flashing. Once all that's installed we'll install the fanfold making sure to tape all the joints as required to keep the water out. Then when i install the J channel around the windows we also tape over the nailing fins of the J on the side pieces and 3 courses of tape up on the top J channel......much like flashing a new construct window. I figure this way when the water sheds down the fanfold behind the vinyl it cannot get behind the j channel and just continues down and pukes out the bottom of the siding.

Here's what happens when you discover a fricken HOME BUILDER builds himself a home in the county with minimal code with intentions of reselling:
We ended up stripping the entire house and completely redoing the exterior...replacing plywood and all....homeis not happy, nor were we.:furious:

vid of the windows installed with NO caulk, NO flashing.....
http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/iowahome/Gibbs Hoouse/?action=view&current=PICT0095.flv

 

[AustinDB]

I doubt the HO's insurance would pay for the repairs as the damage was not immediate rather a long running problem.

contractors insurance is another story-first find out the source of water and offer to let the original installer fix the problem as a warranty item.

 

[CarpenterRN]

There is more to adding vinyl siding on a home than slapping up foam with the siding over it. WRB, attention to flashing details, etc. Same crap work around here and I've yet to see anyone do it right (around here.) I don't see the HO's insurance covering this one. And, depending on how long this has been leaking and penetrating the wall cavity, mold could be an issue. BTW, water gets behind vinyl siding which is why the details before the siding goes up are so very critical.

 

[CarpenterRN]

Kind of interesting IHI. Those pictures could be of just about any house in these parts too. WRB? What's that?

 

[Tom Struble]

no offence IHI but you really stripped that house of any character it had

 

[HomeElements]

Property insurance will not cover that.

 

[Roberts Ren]

IHI-As I said before the windows were trimmed with 1x4 so the just ran J-channel around the metal window and ran their siding into the j-channel and where I pulled back they didnt even use foam board, so there is now flashing, vapor or insulation just vinyl on top of wood. Now the sad thing about this is is LOOKS GOOD the whole house is "shake" siding and they did crown/keystone over all the windows. They guys also set new doors and WHAT A HACK job I have to pull a patio door apart just to install storm door and square it up so it would shut,,,, not a inch of flashing.
So my original questions is "should" they have sealed/caulked the j-channel to the metal frames, "IF" the proper flashing and vapor was installed, I mean this is like a 3/16th to 1/4" gap around all the windows and NOT A stick on the front door just left broken/missing mortor around the brick mold

 

[Tom Struble]

i usually dont like to caulk my j to the casing,if thats what your asking
you handle any water that comes thru those areas with diverter flashing lapping it over the nailing flange of the panel below the window

when i wrap a window or door i always include a flange that returns to the wall under the j

 

[IHI]

no offence IHI but you really stripped that house of any character it had

Homies hated all that crap on the front of the house...the poor man gingerbread made from 2x4's, or do you think they look nice when guys typically either cap over them or side over them? lottsa character left behind no matter which way you do it huh? Nothing says character like boxed crown molding, boxed ginger bread supports:laughing::laughing:

Besides, how much character are you going to put in a $30K job that included new 21 new windows, 4 layer tear off roof plus a resheet, an 34sq of siding on the house and garage out back? Not much time and material left in the budget for nice detail, and i dont phuck for free so they get what they pay for, and obviously you can run the numbers and i highly doubt you'd a put much thought into Azek trim to replace ceratin aspects either.

Important part- homies are happy and it gave the guys something to do vs being laid off. I'd like to be cool and say i dont get out of bed for under $1000/day, but the reality is i have guys and their families to think about as well as my own so sometimes we have to go slum'n.

 

[Tom Struble]

i understand :thumbsup:
but its that kind of attitude that makes it just another vinyl siding job

i'm aware that some owners may not like those details but imo they should have brought a ranch instead of wrecking that nice house

this is not a comment about your installation details which to me look fine:thumbsup:

 

[IHI]

i understand :thumbsup:
but its that kind of attitude that makes it just another vinyl siding job

i'm aware that some owners may not like those details but imo they should have brought a ranch instead of wrecking that nice house

this is not a comment about your installation details which to me look fine:thumbsup:

No, i'm not offended because i agree 100% with you, but sadly the budgets around this area are a joke so being able to really do what I/you think would be a cool job just is'nt happening since you know you have to weigh out the costs ratio and try to fit as much into a customers budget as possible. We already knocked off a slug of other work originally bid because we were pushing close to $50K and they just did'nt have the budget, so it's give and take. As for the house, well, they paid $21,500 for it 10yrs ago. It's literally smack dab in the middle of a very "sketchy" neighborhood that a guy was shot 1 block up the road 3 weekd prior us starting, and is the only house house in a 2 sq block area, the rest of the buildings are all huge run down government paid for apartment buildings and old single dwellings that were converted into 2-3 family units...so these folks are the odd duck in their area LOL!!

Just imagine your the guys that wants to produce some kickazz jobs, has the tools and ability to produce kick azz jobs and are stuck in an area where people have minimal budgets...i get very tired of doing ho hum, run of the mill garbage like that too, but i'm also aware of what it cost me per day to operate my business and make my financial obligations and try to earn a little money above and beyond, so if i let my pride superceed the customers budget just so i could do the work i wanted, i'd a been out of business and bankrupt years ago...so compromises have to be met for a "happy medium"...but i'm sure you know exactly what i'm getting at as do many folks on here and if i'da just walked because they could'nt afford to do their job the way I wanted it done, well, how do my guys explain to their family that little suzie will be eating bread and water until Josh finds a job he deems worthy to work on LOL!!

 

[Tom Struble]

i appreciate this discussion very much,your post are well thought out:thumbsup:

i understand the pressure of keeping guys busy and every job has a budget,and i have done the same thing on many houses like you have done on this one

just the older you get and the longer you do siding the more you can appreciate those ''corny details''
when i look at those i can imagine what it took 75-100 years ago to get them there,no power tools or screw guns or pneumatic nailers

believe me there are aluminum trim guys on here that can replicate those details very accurately,but in the end its the homeowners house

i do have a concern as far as pulling the gable brackets tho
i have done that many times in the belief that they were just decorative
only to find out after the soffit sagged that they weren't

 

[IHI]

i do have a concern as far as pulling the gable brackets tho
i have done that many times in the belief that they were just decorative
only to find out after the soffit sagged that they weren't

I did too.....but check out the back:

All the framing was the same throughout, they did'nt cheapen the front up just because it had some 2x4's out front....when i removed them, they were'nt even nailed into the fascia, so all i literally had to was pull them away from the fascia and they dropped down. These "decorative" pieces were only held in by 6 8D nails....you read that right. Same as the porch "wall" sections that we ended up tearing completely out and rebuilding because the sections between the posts were toe nailed in with 8d nails...2 sections at least had a concrete anchor, the rest did'nt LOL!! That house is a POS to be honest, was'nt anything built good like the houses i know your referring too...this musta been an Amish built house or a mexi built hosue back in the day:laughing::laughing:

 

[Tom Struble]

you know that does look really nice:thumbup:

 

[carpentershane]

Hey IHI- The siding looks great...looks like you could have sold them on a deck as well:laughing: That one looks pretty thrashed.

 

[IHI]

Hey IHI- The siding looks great...looks like you could have sold them on a deck as well:laughing: That one looks pretty thrashed.

LOL, there WAS a deck in the bid but unfortunately that was one of the things we had to 86 from the game plan due to budget. Same with paving the driveway and actually doing the labor siding the garage, i sold them all the materials but they put it on themselves.

What kinda made the deck spendy was the fact the backyard DROPS like a rock, I calculated 18 steps to get down to the garage on a straight shot, and had a few designed figured with landings to break it up a bit since grade was so drastic out back. Plus i always try to figure decks free standing so i know there will never be a chance for water infiltration even though we go overboard with flashing and ice guard prior to putting ledger boards up when we do attach them...i just prefer the free stander for my lifetime piece of mind...so there was more peir footings/cement than a typical deck.

I like running ice barrier up about 10" above threshold, then prior to setting decking boards i bend aluminum flashing and stick that ontop of the ledger as well to help prevent water from getting trapped between ledger and ice barrier

this place was one of many in a flood zone that got wiped out so we did a bunch of decks 8-10' off the ground the past few yrs.

 

[Ten Fingers]

IHI, treated lumber eats aluminum flashing, at least the treated we have around here does.