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The statement was made, "the bench top jointer is over there, clean up the cut."

There is a capital cost in that additional tool in addition to the cost of the circular saw used to make the cut. You now have 2 tools with 2 operations being performed. Two sets ups, 2 chance for error. Then there is the additional time to clean up, maybe just a broom, maybe a vac. With a rail saw it is one and done.

I did look at the thread on cutting tappers on a table saw. I was a +1 for the rail saw. You want to cut the tappers in the shop----unsafe, multiple handling of material, move 16'ers more than once, if the tapper is off then what? Rail saw in the field is all it takes. Work practices evolve as has already been pointed out. I trimmed a front porch with my rail saw, 32' of rail one cut, taught string straight, no dust, yes outside it still gets hooked to the CT. I've done the same with a circ saw, no comparison.

The shooting board has probably been around since the first field cicr saw. The rail saws are just an evolution of the shooting board. Even the Festool TS has evolved since its introduction in 1964.

Tom
 

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Myself, at 61, started framing as a sophmore in high school, I can see both side of this.

A craftsman don't need a green tool to get the job done, because of his skill set.
A green tool can take make it easier for a rookie to get craftsman results.

That's the jist of the arguement.

It's not practical to have the optimum tool to do a large variety of daily tasks.
If you rip cabinet fillers all day, I MIGHT cary table saw to perform the rip, but I never did. My super sawcat did just fine, without a jointer. The only thing I had to do was occaisionally hit it with a block plane which took maybe 15 seconds at the most. This was the senario for me because I framed, did exterior, & interior trim for 20 years, & had a very good skill set as a result. That was before I went out on my own as a an interior trim contractor.

I don't always drink beer, but when I do I drink DOS EQUIS!:jester:

Joe
 

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For those of you who have never seen a Super Sawcat:
super sawcat 7.25$T2eC16VHJG8E9nyfnf5nBQr!u4j2Mw~~60_35.jpg
Mine were all 8 1/4" models.

Back when I bought them, they were in the range of $400 bucks...about double the everyday saw. I had one in each van tool sets...four. In todays money, that's about $800 each. They were the proto type of the current circular saw layout, way ahead of their time. They had great power, a huge aircraft alum base, & that could be zero'd in to great parallel acuracy.

At that $400 rate, I can easily justify the green saw pricing. ;)
Joe

BTW,
I finally found an avitar worthy of me!
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
I buy them just to feel like an elitist.

Sounds like a thread started by a grouchy, jealous old man.
You made my point very well WC you probably have become an elitist because your drinking green kool-aid & not by your skill level. No I'm not a grouchy, jealous old man. I am a very happy old man that has been blessed in doing what I like & I do it very well. I wanted this to be a friendly & respectful thread about today's loss of craftsmanship. Your arrogance, & disrespect for others & probably lack of experience is exactly what is hurting our trade. I see so much work that has been done, approved & paid for that 20 years ago would have never been allowed. I'm talking about six figure homes less than 10 years old falling apart because of things done wrong or hidden. The majority of the previous comments are about getting the job done faster, less clean up time & more money made but not much on quality...interesting. Loss of craftsmanship is all this thread was about not the quality of a man.
 
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For those of you who have never seen a Super Sawcat:
View attachment 87930
Mine were all 8 1/4" models.

Back when I bought them, they were in the range of $400 bucks...about double the everyday saw. I had one in each van tool sets...four. In todays money, that's about $800 each. They were the proto type of the current circular saw layout, way ahead of their time. They had great power, a huge aircraft alum base, & that could be zero'd in to great parallel acuracy.

At that $400 rate, I can easily justify the green saw pricing. ;)
Joe

BTW,
I finally found an avitar worthy of me!
I think one problem with this thread is that people are looking at a Western manufactured tool, and comparing with Eastern prices. Festool cost a lot more up front than Chinese tools. That is true. Is that unexpected? If the Super SawCat were made today, and in the U.S., how much would it cost? Tool prices 30 years ago, compared to wages, were a lot higher than they are today. They were considered an investment. What we are paying for the Festool might not have seemed that unreasonable back then. At that time we were mostly comparing to American and European made tools.

I agree with everybody that says that it's the person behind that tool that counts. Some of the best examples of construction were built entirely with hand tools. Mouldings were even made with wooden moulding planes. The level of true craftsmanship was unreal. The flip side of that was that very few people could afford it. To bring the price of design down, we now deal with mass production in materials, and for most projects, we need to do production type work. I'm not saying poor quality, but definitely not at the same level. To compensate for the need for speed, we purchase tools that allow us to be more efficient. With time being increasingly valuable, a few minutes here and a few minutes there start to add up.
 

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The majority of the previous comments are about getting the job done faster, less clean up time & more money made but not much on quality...interesting. Loss of craftsmanship is all this thread was about not the quality of a man.
The whole point is that the tool does not make the craftsman. This comment is inferring the opposite, that tools should allow better craftsmanship. For a good craftsman, a better tool can allow the same level of craftsmanship more efficiently. That's where Festool excels. You still need to know where to cut, where to glue, where to nail and where to screw.
 

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You made my point very well WC you probably have become an elitist because your drinking green kool-aid & not by your skill level. No I'm not a grouchy, jealous old man. I am a very happy old man that has been blessed in doing what I like & I do it very well. I wanted this to be a friendly & respectful thread about today's loss of craftsmanship. Your arrogance, & disrespect for others & probably lack of experience is exactly what is hurting our trade. I see so much work that has been done, approved & paid for that 20 years ago would have never been allowed. I'm talking about six figure homes less than 10 years old falling apart because of things done wrong or hidden. The majority of the previous comments are about getting the job done faster, less clean up time & more money made but not much on quality...interesting. Loss of craftsmanship is all this thread was about not the quality of a man.
Oh yeah, you got me. I buy the best tools I can, because I can and because I hate junk.
I have 40k pounds of the finest cast iron machinery ever made in America.

I am a little bit of a tool and machine snob. I worked my ass off to be one though.

I regress because I must not know what I am doing and I just slap crap together for people and take all their money with no concerns about anything else.

The only people that hate on expensive, high quality tools are the one's that are too cheap to see the real value.


Does your VCR still blink 12:00?
 

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You are barking up the wrong tree here.

It's like saying those guys with those new fangled electric tools are sub par because I have a hand saw.

I don't need practice, I am very good at what I do. What I do need/want is to be able to do it quicker, maybe even a little better and get done with the project sooner.

Damn, that probably means I can make better money too.

You keep lighting fires with a bow and a rope, I will use my lighter.
 

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I'm talking about six figure homes less than 10 years old falling apart because of things done wrong or hidden. The majority of the previous comments are about getting the job done faster, less clean up time & more money made but not much on quality...interesting. Loss of craftsmanship is all this thread was about not the quality of a man.

Sawdust,sometimes these threads digress from the original intent of the OP.You struck a nerve singling out the "green" tools,so the point of loss craftsmanship became synonymous with having better tools.

If the point your trying to make is just the loss of craftsmanship,probably should
of left out the poke.

As far as 10 year old homes falling apart,the blame may fall more on price shopping and greed rather than the tools used.

I understand where you're coming from on the lack of quality,we've all seen it.I would be more apt to blame it on not having the right tools,and being in a hurry
because lower bids from unqualified subs can't sustain a business.

Just my thoughts after 40 years in the Biz.

PS
I don't own any green tools,but I do want a track-saw,maybe green.maybe not.:whistling
 

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Sawdust how many of these homes your talking about we're built with contractors who used festool? just wondering why you have this view that people who have festool are not skilled at what they do or are you just jealous you have only just figured out festool whilst others have been working smarter not harder.
 

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One can buy a lot of hookers for some of the festool prices...just sayin':whistling
 

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A craftsman don't need a green tool to get the job done, because of his skill set. A green tool can take make it easier for a rookie to get craftsman results. That's the jist of the arguement.
IMHO people who haven't paid their dues don't deserve to have fancy tools. They don't have the same level of appriciation and eventually that special feature becomes more of a crutch than a convenience. But then again I tend to be a little quirky in that kind of way. :laughing:

One thing that bothers me is how someone can get a nail gun and a fancy circular mitre saw and then magically become a "finish carpenter" after doing their first crown & chair moulding job.

I painstakenly went through the process of learning how to do mitre cuts with the hand saw and then I learned how to back-mitre to make my joints neat and tight. Before that I learned how to find studs and use a nail-set to get those finish nails below the surface without denting up the wood.

Nowadays it burns me up to see guys slice a couple 45's and calk it after they nail..ahem.. staple it to the wall.
 
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