Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
581 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just bought a 1930's era house that is post and beam construction with about a 18-20 inches of crawl space underneath.

There are existing oak floors that will not be able to be rehabbed due to the multitude of repairs made of the years.

I am wanting to install antique heart pine flooring over the existing floors, the existing flooring is structurally sound for the most part.

My questions are these:

1- moisture barrier yes/no?

2- if yes what type do you recommend?

3- since the existing floors are most sound should I install a layer of 3/4" T&G plywood before installing the flooring?

4- staples, nails or glue down?

Please feel free to add any other advice you might have for me.

Thanks,
Brian
 

·
Focusing on solutions.
Hardwood floors/custom cabinets
Joined
·
5,785 Posts
Different woods take on & loose moisture at different rates. Over a crawl space, the sub floor & main floor will have different moisture content, so for that reason alone, I'd put down a layer of aquabarB. Less than $20/500sq ft is pretty cheap insurance.

If you're laying over existing hardwood, be sure to go perpendicular to the old flooring so it's movement doesn't make your new floors move. Personally, I'd just use 2" cleats.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
581 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Pinwheel,
I don't have the room, height wise, to use 2" screeds..... I will look into the aquabarB.
Thanks again!
 

·
Particulate Filter
Joined
·
4,430 Posts
Persoanlly I prefer roofing felt over aquabar. I have a thread about it in flooring picture posts.

Long and the short, I just did a repair and the floor had two underlayments right next to each other. The floor over the hybrid paper was cupped and super loose, lots of water damage. The floor over the felt was in significantly better shape. It was really njght and day. This was over a 18 inch crawl space like the ops.

I should say that the paper layer was not aquabar, but the paper was heavily degraded, disintegrated really. The felt was rough too, but by and large intact.
 

·
Paul
Joined
·
4,120 Posts
Persoanlly I prefer roofing felt over aquabar. I have a thread about it in flooring picture posts.

Long and the short, I just did a repair and the floor had two underlayments right next to each other. The floor over the hybrid paper was cupped and super loose, lots of water damage. The floor over the felt was in significantly better shape. It was really njght and day. This was over a 18 inch crawl space like the ops.

I should say that the paper layer was not aquabar, but the paper was heavily degraded, disintegrated really. The felt was rough too, but by and large intact.
I've found that on a job also. It was rosin paper and 15lb felt. A lot of guys swear by rosin paper - I don't ;) Aquabar is nice stuff I just had a hard time finding it back when I did a lot of nail down.
 

·
Focusing on solutions.
Hardwood floors/custom cabinets
Joined
·
5,785 Posts
Persoanlly I prefer roofing felt over aquabar. I have a thread about it in flooring picture posts.

Long and the short, I just did a repair and the floor had two underlayments right next to each other. The floor over the hybrid paper was cupped and super loose, lots of water damage. The floor over the felt was in significantly better shape. It was really njght and day. This was over a 18 inch crawl space like the ops.

I should say that the paper layer was not aquabar, but the paper was heavily degraded, disintegrated really. The felt was rough too, but by and large intact.
So, how does this even apply to my reference for using aquabarB? You're talking about old paper that's nothing more than paper. Of course the area with felt paper is going to be in better shape. One's a moisture barrier & the other is nothing more than kraft paper.


Felts alright, but there's 2 reasons I don't use it. #1, it's bulky & heavy & takes up a lot of precious space in the trailer. #2, I don't like introducing petroleum smells in peoples house. If the homeowners are sensitive to petroleum smells, it's going to be a problem for years.
 

·
Particulate Filter
Joined
·
4,430 Posts
I have not used aquabar, but what Ive seen it looks like paper or cardboard. I think it would break down in a similar fashion to paper or rosin over time.

We wont know for sure until someone does a twenty year test of the two side by side. But what I do know is that I have empirical evidence that the felt holds up very well over decades. So until I pull up a floor with aquabar next to felt and the aquabar wins then I will stick with felt.

The fact that the felt is bulky and heavy is why it lasts. Its dense! I like the feel of the felt, it has some cushion and I think it makes for a quieter floor. Why? Its dense!

Odor in the home? Meh, never heard a peep from anyone and have never smelled it once the floor has been laid.

let me ask you this, if you left your aquabar out in the rain, could you set it aside to dry out or would it deform, mold and generally disintegrate?
 

·
Focusing on solutions.
Hardwood floors/custom cabinets
Joined
·
5,785 Posts
So, you admittedly know nothing about the product, but you come on the internet bashing the product as being inferior to the product you choose to use, even though you've never seen or used it. Yeah, you sound like a real flooring pro.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,751 Posts
I think the guy is a flooring pro! So what are the components of aquabar, silicone infused into paper/wood product? What are the components of roofing felt? When we rip up tile they sometimes put felt paper underneath, a few products to bond it to floor which I have no idea with some of them, makes ripup easier, not much deterioration, just a little brittle. Did one yesterday.

Metal



Floor Flooring Tile Hardwood Wood
 

·
Focusing on solutions.
Hardwood floors/custom cabinets
Joined
·
5,785 Posts
So what are the components of aquabar, silicone infused into paper/wood product? What are the components of roofing felt?
My flooring supplier no longer sells me aquabarB, but a different moisture barrier underpaper. It uses a petroleum base for moisture control.

I always used felt paper over crawl spaces & rosin paper over climate controlled areas. CT member astor convinced me several years ago to give aquabarB a try so I inquired about it from my flooring supplier if they carried it. At that time, they did, but have since switched to a different brand.

For a long time, I battled with cupping using my underpaper schedule. Different woods take on & release moisture at different rates. Thus the subfloor would have different rates of release as my hardwood and we'd go through a period of adjustment where my floors would cup for a few weeks on new construction, while the hardwood & subfloor found their balance.

Since switching to the moisture barrier underpaper, that balance period is no longer an issue. When I leave, the floors are flat, when I come back weeks later for the final coat of finish, the floors are still flat.

If you'll notice, I never said felt was a bad product. I gave the reasons why I don't use felt any longer as an underpaper. How many heavy, bulky rolls of felt do you need cover 500 sq ft? With the underpaper we're using, I can cover $500 sq ft with one roll that's the size & weight of a roll of red rosin paper And I'm getting better finished product results since I've switched.

When you're a site sand & finish company, cupping is far more apparant than a prefinish company. We don't have the beveled edges to help hide the wood movement.
 

·
Particulate Filter
Joined
·
4,430 Posts
So, you admittedly know nothing about the product, but you come on the internet bashing the product as being inferior to the product you choose to use, even though you've never seen or used it. Yeah, you sound like a real flooring pro.
I have the professionalism to admit what I do and do not know so that others can compare their information and draw their own conclusions.

I notice you didnt answer my question and instead went all ad hominem. Why bro, why?
 

·
Particulate Filter
Joined
·
4,430 Posts
*

Trade: hardwood floor contractor & so much more

Join Date: Dec 2009

Location: Missouri

Posts: 3,070

Rewards Points: 2,584

Re: Tar Paper Or Rosin Paper

"Tar paper over unheated space like crawl spaces, rosin paper everywhere else. The purpose of the rosin paper is to seperate the wood to*wood*contact*that will for sure cause*squeeks."

Pinwheel 2/2011

http://www.contractortalk.com/f10/tar-paper-rosin-paper-92865/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,706 Posts
*

Trade: hardwood floor contractor & so much more

Join Date: Dec 2009

Location: Missouri

Posts: 3,070

Rewards Points: 2,584

Re: Tar Paper Or Rosin Paper

"Tar paper over unheated space like crawl spaces, rosin paper everywhere else. The purpose of the rosin paper is to seperate the wood to*wood*contact*that will for sure cause*squeeks."

Pinwheel 2/2011

http://www.contractortalk.com/f10/tar-paper-rosin-paper-92865/
Theres way too much emperical ad hominems slinging around here..i'll sit this one on the sideline..

Besides there is hardwood grade felt and roofing..then there s 15lb and 30lb.15 aint bulky and covers 432sf.30lb is bulky heavy and covers half.
 

·
Focusing on solutions.
Hardwood floors/custom cabinets
Joined
·
5,785 Posts
*

Trade: hardwood floor contractor & so much more

Join Date: Dec 2009

Location: Missouri

Posts: 3,070

Rewards Points: 2,584

Re: Tar Paper Or Rosin Paper

"Tar paper over unheated space like crawl spaces, rosin paper everywhere else. The purpose of the rosin paper is to seperate the wood to*wood*contact*that will for sure cause*squeeks."

Pinwheel 2/2011

http://www.contractortalk.com/f10/tar-paper-rosin-paper-92865/




I'm pretty sure I covered this in my last post. I'll quote it here since you evidently failed to read it the first time I posted it.

My flooring supplier no longer sells me aquabarB, but a different moisture barrier underpaper. It uses a petroleum base for moisture control.

I always used felt paper over crawl spaces & rosin paper over climate controlled areas. CT member astor convinced me several years ago to give aquabarB a try so I inquired about it from my flooring supplier if they carried it. At that time, they did, but have since switched to a different brand.

For a long time, I battled with cupping using my underpaper schedule. Different woods take on & release moisture at different rates. Thus the subfloor would have different rates of release as my hardwood and we'd go through a period of adjustment where my floors would cup for a few weeks on new construction, while the hardwood & subfloor found their balance.

Since switching to the moisture barrier underpaper, that balance period is no longer an issue. When I leave, the floors are flat, when I come back weeks later for the final coat of finish, the floors are still flat.

If you'll notice, I never said felt was a bad product. I gave the reasons why I don't use felt any longer as an underpaper. How many heavy, bulky rolls of felt do you need cover 500 sq ft? With the underpaper we're using, I can cover $500 sq ft with one roll that's the size & weight of a roll of red rosin paper And I'm getting better finished product results since I've switched.

When you're a site sand & finish company, cupping is far more apparant than a prefinish company. We don't have the beveled edges to help hide the wood movement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
15 pound felt is worthless. One should either use Aquabar or nothing. 15 pound felt holds moisture. It doesn't repel it. Hell, the stuff is delivered on open flatbed trucks that drive through the weather. Aquabar is two sheets of paper with a layer of pure asphalt in between. That is why it works.
 

·
Particulate Filter
Joined
·
4,430 Posts
15 pound felt is worthless. One should either use Aquabar or nothing. 15 pound felt holds moisture. It doesn't repel it. Hell, the stuff is delivered on open flatbed trucks that drive through the weather. Aquabar is two sheets of paper with a layer of pure asphalt in between. That is why it works.
Pound sticks coffer.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top