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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How much do you charge for painting louvered doors?

I'm finishing up a job that's running a few days longer than I had estimated, because their are about a dozen louvered doors in it that take forever to paint.

I figured them in with the trim work, bad idea.

I'm getting about $10 a door for them the way I figured them in, but I'm thinking that I should have charged around $25 a piece for them.

Something esle thats taking longer than expected is windows with removable wooden mullions that have to be painted to match the window frames.

How much should I charge for louvered doors, and windows with mullions?

I've got a pretty good idea already, but I'm interested in what everyone else gets for them.

I'm thinking a good sprayer would be wise investment about right now.

What do you guys think?
 

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You won't make that mistake again!
I base charge $100.00 for a full louvered door or panel per folding door. If there are drips from the previous painting, the price goes up. There are timesthat I will recommend a new door as opposed to refinishing an old one. Complete stripping and repainting are a prohibitive cost here. This is only done on 'heritage' homes and can run $500.00 per door.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No, I won't make that mistake again.

The louvered doors were about the only thing in the house that didn't have runs, the last guy who painted used a sprayer for the louvered doors, but that's all he used it on.

I hustled up and managed to come out with a little profit, a lot when you consider the lesson learned.

These doors are bi-folding louvers that are hinged in the middle, not much more trouble to take off than masking, and I only had to paint the outside and the frames.

A sprayer would have made it a breeze.

I'll figure the price of a sprayer into the next, that's for sure.

Thanks guys.
 

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ProWall, you're the kind of guy that ticks me off!
My prep guy COSTS me about $13.00 per hr. I allow 4 Hrs. to prep a louvered door. Where I am, the majority of the doors were originally painted with oil based paint which means that they have to have all of the 'jiffy jobs' (sprayed latex) stripped off, then sanded and then repainted. This takes time, thus money.
Your figures indicate a 'hit and run' guy.
 

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Sorry if I was misunderstood, but I'm no 'hit & run' type of guy. That figure alone was for applying 1 coat of paint. It didn't account for prep at all, including removing the door (if applicable), sanding, scraping, stripping, caulking, filling, etc. If there is evidence of a problem, (ie failure due to latex over oil), then the price obviously goes way up. The price quoted above was just a plug-in price for 1 coat of paint. I figured I charge $55 per man hour, and it only takes approx. 1/2 hour to paint any kind of door. So at the end of the estimating process with materials, overhead, profit, and whatever prep is required, you are probably right with the $100 figure.

So once again, sorry if I was misunderstood, I typed that on the fly.

And I rarely spray anything, its all done by hand.
 
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Hi everyone...I think the confusion is from comparing apples to oranges...both Prowall and Tetorbuilt seem to be talking about more of a refinishing job..i.e. strip off old paint,sand, maybe spot prime and 2 top-coats ( you can't cover a louvre in one coat unless you spray IMO) but if thats the case $100. is WAY too cheap....Whats the failure that happens when you use a quality latex over oil?? I can see a failure with oil over latex more likely.
Just wondering
Dale
ProWallGuy said:
Sorry if I was misunderstood, but I'm no 'hit & run' type of guy. That figure alone was for applying 1 coat of paint. It didn't account for prep at all, including removing the door (if applicable), sanding, scraping, stripping, caulking, filling, etc. If there is evidence of a problem, (ie failure due to latex over oil), then the price obviously goes way up. The price quoted above was just a plug-in price for 1 coat of paint. I figured I charge $55 per man hour, and it only takes approx. 1/2 hour to paint any kind of door. So at the end of the estimating process with materials, overhead, profit, and whatever prep is required, you are probably right with the $100 figure.

So once again, sorry if I was misunderstood, I typed that on the fly.

And I rarely spray anything, its all done by hand.
 

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Whats the failure that happens when you use a quality latex over oil?? I can see a failure with oil over latex more likely.
Oil over latex adheres with no problem. Never seen a failure there. Latex over oil, whether quality or not, doesn't adhere very well at all. Seen many failures where latex was applied over oil without the appropriate (alkyd) primer and/or prep.
 
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Prowall thanks for the clarification..I guess I implied prep...but still...latex over oil is compatable with good prep but oil over latex requires extensive prep work AND a tie-coat primer to be a good system.
ProWallGuy said:
Oil over latex adheres with no problem. Never seen a failure there. Latex over oil, whether quality or not, doesn't adhere very well at all. Seen many failures where latex was applied over oil without the appropriate (alkyd) primer and/or prep.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
It's been my experience that oil over latex works just fine without any special prep.

As long as base is acrylic, the oil should go on it good.

Oil has a more dense molecular structure than acrylic, which makes it's more difficult for the acrylic to stick to it. It's like trying to paint silicone.

Oil, on the other hand, will penatrate the porous structure of the acrylic. :Thumbs:
 
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Interesting...what do you mean by ..more dense?...I think the problem with oil over latex is that oil is more brittle and won't flex like latex so it is more likely to crack...especially in exterior settings...and once a coating cracks there is a entry way for moisture and a coatings failure is somewhere around the corner....maybe in an interior setting is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other....but I still don't really buy it..the bonding of oil to a surface depends much more on penetration..where as the adhesion of latex come from curing into a coating that is pretty much one continuous film...at least this is what I've come to believe is true...and it seems pretty accurate.
S.W.C said:
It's been my experience that oil over latex works just fine without any special prep.

As long as base is acrylic, the oil should go on it good.

Oil has a more dense molecular structure than acrylic, which makes it's more difficult for the acrylic to stick to it. It's like trying to paint silicone.

Oil, on the other hand, will penatrate the porous structure of the acrylic. :Thumbs:
 

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I have had a few cases where the oil based worked as a remover and softened the latex to the point where it started to crinkle and the whole door had to be stripped.
This hasn't happened in years and I suspect that it was caused by some of the earliest latex which didn't enjoy a very good rep. but it is something that is always in the back of my mind when quoting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Unregistered said:
Interesting...what do you mean by ..more dense?...I think the problem with oil over latex is that oil is more brittle and won't flex like latex so it is more likely to crack...especially in exterior settings...and once a coating cracks there is a entry way for moisture and a coatings failure is somewhere around the corner....maybe in an interior setting is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other....but I still don't really buy it..the bonding of oil to a surface depends much more on penetration..where as the adhesion of latex come from curing into a coating that is pretty much one continuous film...at least this is what I've come to believe is true...and it seems pretty accurate.
When I say more dense, I mean that the molecules in oil are closer together than in latex, like silicone or teflon, the molecules are so close together that compounds with a less dense structure can't penetrate them (it's like putting gravel in an hour glass), but the compounds with the more dense structure penetrate very well, because their molecules are small enough to get in between other less dense molecules, such as those of latex based paints.

I agree that latex forms a continuous film, especially on slick surfaces, such as oil.

The problem there is, it doesn't penetrate at all, so it's basically just rapped around the oil, and any break in it will cause it to start peeling like a bad sunburn.

I've done repaints where the previous painter applied latex, satin or semi-gloss, over oil(ten years before I got there), it was still on, and I couldn't tell it was over oil, untill I started to scuff it up, then it started flaking off with just light sanding.

Of course their were no children or pets in the house, so it didn't get any wear and tear.

Oil over acrylic based primer, not acrylic paint, works for porous surfaces, for smooth surfaces you need a primer with a denser structure so it will penetrate the surface, but yet allow the oil to penetrate it, that's the way I understand it.

It's a matter of matching the primer to the surface, and then matching the paint to the primer. :Thumbs:
 
G

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S.W.C. we're kinda on the same track thinking that any break in the coating will cause a paint failure and peeling. I guess the way I'm thinking is that different substances may expand at different rates in the same temperature and the less dense or "larger" molecules of latex will expand a greater distance and its just because of the oil being able to penetrate and bond to the latex as it expands that will cause it to crack and then the "break" in the film happens and then the peeling starts..Its just a way of thinking about it ...I could be wrong.QUOTE=S.W.C]When I say more dense, I mean that the molecules in oil are closer together than in latex, like silicone or teflon, the molecules are so close together that compounds with a less dense structure can't penetrate them (it's like putting gravel in an hour glass), but the compounds with the more dense structure penetrate very well, because their molecules are small enough to get in between other less dense molecules, such as those of latex based paints.

I agree that latex forms a continuous film, especially on slick surfaces, such as oil.

The problem there is, it doesn't penetrate at all, so it's basically just rapped around the oil, and any break in it will cause it to start peeling like a bad sunburn.

I've done repaints where the previous painter applied latex, satin or semi-gloss, over oil(ten years before I got there), it was still on, and I couldn't tell it was over oil, untill I started to scuff it up, then it started flaking off with just light sanding.

Of course their were no children or pets in the house, so it didn't get any wear and tear.

Oil over acrylic based primer, not acrylic paint, works for porous surfaces, for smooth surfaces you need a primer with a denser structure so it will penetrate the surface, but yet allow the oil to penetrate it, that's the way I understand it.

It's a matter of matching the primer to the surface, and then matching the paint to the primer. :Thumbs:[/QUOTE]
 

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Hey guys,
Been busy with work...haven't been on in a while.
My 2¢ on this thread is "latex over oil, never oil over latex."

Two reasons. First, the prep work involved to apply oil over latex is too costly. Rarely will I do major prep work for a door. As said above, I will usually sell new doors to a customer.
Second, as somewhat said above, oil will not expand as latex will. If you have a door with a previous latex coat, hands down, it will cause cracking in a new oil coat. Unless the door is sripped clean.

SWC, I get 25 per standard window. 45 with mullions. Doors, I get 20 per side. Trim is always seperate. And as I said, minimul prep work or sell a new door.

As far as the sprayer, I tried that route in the past. The best was to spray doors and mullions, without making a mess for yourself or the customer, is to remove them and take them back to your shop and spray them.
Kinda hard if you dont have a shop. If you do it still becomes a pain in the arsh because with every interior job, youv'e created 2 job sites rather than 1.

I've said it before on other threads. The best and cleanest finish I get on doors is from using foam rollers, either 4" or 6".

As far as for the louvered doors? I charge a minimum of 75 per side.
 

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SWC and unregisitered, most folks are not particularily concerned about HOW it works on a molecular level.
Maybe we should say that putting latex over oil based paints without suitable prep and primer is not a good idea.
I will not enter the oil over latex arena as I have never done it. I have always stripped the latex off and gone back with oil based enamels, scuffing as I went.
If you are truly concerned with adhesion on a molecular level, I can contact a few classmates that can give you the entire envelope.
 
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Teetorbuilt...Well said! lol....I start to get dark circles under my eyes when there's too much hypothetical detail too....I guess a ballpark way of thinking about it would be ...what are people in the real world actually doing? With the sue crazy mentality some have you would think that cans of latex would be slathered in disclaimers equalling a .."OH MY GOD!!! HE'S COVERED IN GASOLINE AND ABOUT TO LIGHT A CIGAR!!!.. DON"T DO IT!!!...FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...SOMEBODY STOP HIM!!!"...level of warning..in some applications its justified...but in IMHO that would be for the most part bull********************. Find ONE can of latex that specifically says DO NOT USE OVER OIL and I'll give a dollar for that can. Theres implied prep specs for going over oil i.e.."clean off chalky (old oil) surfaces..or "if extremly chalky the surface should be primed with an oil primer"..but thats about it. Whos buying all the latex?? If the homeowner had to sand..full oil prime...which would then require 2 top coats to cover..they wouldn't buy it...and if they bought it and because theres no specific warning not to use it..and the paint fell off in sheets...there would be law suits up the wazoo...so it would follow that in the vast majority of common applications latex over oil is o.k.

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Teetorbilt said:
SWC and unregisitered, most folks are not particularily concerned about HOW it works on a molecular level.
Maybe we should say that putting latex over oil based paints without suitable prep and primer is not a good idea.
I will not enter the oil over latex arena as I have never done it. I have always stripped the latex off and gone back with oil based enamels, scuffing as I went.
If you are truly concerned with adhesion on a molecular level, I can contact a few classmates that can give you the entire envelope.
 

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Louvered door price prep & finish

Yeah, I know I am reviving an old thread but I need more help.

Have 3 raw (unprimed) louvered doors to prep and paint. To prep and paint does $100 per side sound too high? I also have to cut in the hinges on these doors and the door handles (both xtra of course). I was thinking $75.00 / side to paint and $25 / per side to prep = $100.00 side.
Was just looking in HomeTech Handyman cost estimator and they show $305 /door and this was a 2005 edition.
 

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It all depends on if I'm spaying or brushing...new or old doors?
If it's new construction..then I spray prime one coat, let dry
sand them spray two coats latex finish... and it all depends on how many
if it's only one then more per door...if it's 10 and I have a good spry spot
then I give a lower price per. Lots of variables..
If I'm brushing ...then nothing under $100 any door any time.
 

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I'm brushing and they are brand new doors probably will brush because I don't have anywhere to spray.
Thanks, Pat
 
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