Local codes can always over-ride a model code based on local conditions, experiences and practices.

It not a question of "fixity", but historic problems created by previous contractors regarding flashing, moisture penetration and mold problems that show up long after the deck was built. Especially common in areas with substantial rain or snow accumulations. Some people think a little goop or caulk is "good enough".

A similar situation exists when it comes to wind, seismic and snow loads on the basis structure where local requirements are different than the State or National requirements.

VA can have some nasty moisture situations depending on the location.

 

Even when you look through all the deck books that are out there they don't show one situation where they attaching where there is a brick veneer.the proper way it to bolt right through the veneer through the rimand even solid block behind the rim from inside the basement ,but I'm sure very few people do this especially if there basement is finished.

I try to lag to the rim and also use sleeve anchors Into the brick aswell.what does every body else do???????????

 

One needs to remember that brick veneer is a facing. It is not a structural element. When attatching ledger boards you should bolt through the brick veneer and the ribbon joist.

Lags will not generally meet code. Neither will anchors into the brick.

On some occassions it may be required to have sono tubes at the building, and the deck is not attatched.

Also keep in mind if through bolting, don't "crush" the brick veneer. Remember there is an air space between the brick and the ribbon.

Check with your local building department to see how they want it done. It does vary with location.

 

Every builders deck I've removed which has been passed by inspectors has been lagged to the rim or frame?..

 

Yes, they get away with a lot. That won't meet the new code. Some inspectors will classify things as "standard to the industry".

Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they don't. I myself bolt through. No worries and it impresses the inspector. That's always a good thing. :laughing:

Think about it. Lags can pull out. Anchors are only as strong as the brick. Anchors in concrete is different. Their concern is that the deck can pull away from the building. I've seen it. Especially in cottage country where no one shovels the snow off the deck. Oooops.

 

The inspector is really not qualified for structural and architectural details. He just enforces the code, which is the worst way you can build without going to "jail" or being sued. It is not necessarily the right or proper way to build.

"Industry Standards" have absolutely no legal standing unless they are adopted by an authority. - They are just carefully written suggestions written very simply and easy to understand. Even the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) that are used in virtually all codes and standards have no authority unless adopted by a recognized legal entity or specified by an architect/engineer.

Ledger supported decks are the reason for the increased number of free-standing decks.

 

That's for sure. Too many times inspectors let new home builders circumvent the code under the "industry standard" BS. In other words, if everyone is doing it, he'll let it go.

Not all inspectors are like that. Fortunately some hold the builders to the code. Which, agreed is a minimum standard.

Hey, all one can do is build the best you can. Code is the minimum, quite often we go beyond that, for the sake of a sound and safe structure. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks guys. 99% in this area are bolted to the vaneer alone. Not even bolted to the rim joist. Also many have posts just sitting on the concrete slab with no mechanical connection to stop them from kicking out! The code book shows no details about bolting through to the rim joist on a vaneer but says you can't bolt to the vaneer. The diagrams show a brick vaneer building with a big cross through it but the sample only says it can't be bolted to vaneer. I will have to call them but I think they are closed today.

 

You should be good to go with bolting into the "rim joist" or bandboard, as long as you also use at least two Simpson DTT2 connectors. Standard caveat about local code, of course.

 

How about a freestanding deck set close to the brick. No worries about how to attach it or it pulling away. Also, how do you flash the finger space behind the brick once you make that penetration into the rim?

 

And engineers usually override all code just get a letter with a diagram from an engineer and your golden. It will probably cost you less than digging more holes, concrete, posts, beams and hardware to make it a free standing deck.

 

This is an intersting topic,and for sure there are a lot of brick veneer projects with expanding anchors holding them up.

The only good way to do this is to have the leadger installed first with brick/flashing done at the same time. But you got to figure the brick is 3 1/2'' or so,there is a 1 1/2'' space, 1/2'' of black board so a person would end up with a 5 1/2'' hole to deal with the same as if the joists were extending from the building. A real pain to flash. And of course no Builder is going to do this They just dont see a deck 15' off the ground as a room addition.

I got a repair call on a brick veneer upstairs deck I bid and lost 8 years ago. The rail system had completley failed but I got a chance to see how the bolts they installed to fasten the ledger held up. They seemed to be 3/4 '' with large glav washers and the ledger was holding up fine,everything else was falling apart, but the attachment was good.

The deck build was done after most of the work inside was already done so they had to be long lags.I bid it free standing. Drilling thru that brick with out cracking it or compresing it when the lags were tightened up must have been a real pain.Also the lags would have to be bad ass strong all the sheer was on them with a load of a 40' x 16' deck. Mabey the washers did let water thru but it most likely would run down the 1 1/2'' space.

It's just something I would not do no matter if I could get away with it or not. Even seeing this one doing fine.

JonMon www.deckmastersllc.com

 

It's a great subject which comes up time and time again,how many people are cutting the drywall inside the house to solid block and tighten up those thru bolts,also getting long bolts in galvanized seems to be quite a challenge here.

Out of interest,I looked at over 15 deck books in depot and none of them really deal with a veneered larger install.I agree building the deck independent from the house solves a lot of issues,but if they have had waterproofing done and the ground is not settled it's not a option.

If you pack the ledger off the wall half inch or so and cover with blue skin silicon the bolt holes,it should be good???????

 

Keep in mind that you're not supposed to put any posts within 3 feet of the foundation in our area.

If you need a place for 12" galvanized carriage bolts at a good price, send me a PM.

I have built a LOT of decks with the ledger attached through the brick veneer and through the rim joist. ALL of them passed code and none of them have ever failed.

 

I was driving around this afternoon checking out all the decks that were on brick vaneers and I didn't see one with posts close to the house. Looked like everyone had been bolted either into the brick or into the rim joist. I might just keep it free standing after thinking about the flashing issue. Can't see I would be able to get a good seal no matter what I do.

Cheers for the tips guys

Oh yeah and whilst I'm thinking about it has anyone got feedback about the railings? Reason I'm asking is because again code says totally different to what is done and what local places sell. Code says no more than 6ft between posts yet most around here are 8ft and the deck supply house says 8ft is fine and it's the most common size they stock.

 

BC,
" The swift do not have the race,nor the mighty ones the battle,nor do the wise also have food." Ecclesiastes 9 :11

However. Change is Change,and Money is Money, but what sticks to the Bee, Makes the Honey. JonMon.


Sometimes Construstion ,like the Military, has only one Rule.
Dont get Caught.

J.

 

Sometimes Construstion ,like the Military, has only one Rule.
Dont get Caught.
J.

I thought it was don't ask don't tell :laughing:

 

Fortunately or unfortunately, codes are changing and what was used 2 years ago may not apply today.

My understanding is that attaching through a brick veneer is not allowed. I think that the main reason is the distance between the house rim and the ledger. Of course we don't have many brick houses out here.

 

That's the way it is here...if it's veneer, must be free standing.

bolt length is the issue i believe.

 

How do all you "bolters" verify that the builder didn't use 7/16 osb for the bond when there are tgi"s or floor trusses used for floor joist. You are assuming a lot when you just bolt to the bond through brick.
Heres a link posted by theAWC:
http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf

Figure # 17 may be of interest
Steve Scholl

 

Majority of your rim board is 1-7/8" for TGI/JSI. All engineering provided by manufacturers states that lags are acceptable with a modified fastener schedule assuming the floor joists run parallel to the deck joists, but I still have a hard time believing that laging and/or bolting into "osb" holds. How do you all feel about attaching to an engineered rim joist when the joists run perpendicular to the deck joists?

 

I've also seen a lot of deck ledgers attached to brick veneer with expansion bolts. Although it's frequently done, that doesn't make it correct. Thru-bolting isn't acceptable either.

If you do it that way and your customer were to dispute the attachment method, his attorney will have no trouble finding information that it's not acceptable.

This link has some good information on this subject, and specifically prohibits ledger attachment to brick veneer. Some of the more sophisticated local codes have adopted this document or reference it.

http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf

 

How about a little time-out where we pretend to use some common sense mixed with code? I've actually met an inspector or two who do that.

The ledger board has two jobs to accomplish: (A) holding one edge of the deck up, and (B) ensuring that it can't move away from the house.

(A) is a no-brainer. If you can stack bricks 3-4 stories high without the weight of the upper ones crushing the lower ones, the weight of the deck, even full of dancing gerbils, ain't gonna bring it down.

(B) is slightly more complex. If you're just lagged into the band board, and all 10,000 gerbils race toward the outer edge of the deck and slam on the brakes simultaneously, there's actually a tiny conceivable chance they could rip all of the joist end nails loose and send it tottering off its legs. Enter the Simpson DTT2. With a few of those in place, you'd need some serious iron to yank that deck away from the house.

 

I think bolting to the rim joist through the brick will satisfy the pull. And I know DDT deck tension ties are supposed to prevent pull on the rim board but give me a break. The older homes had diagonal flooring boards nailed into that rim and the new sub floors have glued sheathing so DDT are just overkill. In either case they tie back into the house. Good Intention but overkill.

I would think a deck would rock like a table and the brick could be weakened by the inward forces on a hollow cavity.

 

The older homes had diagonal flooring boards nailed into that rim and the new sub floors have glued sheathing so DDT are just overkill. In either case they tie back into the house. Good Intention but overkill.

I would think a deck would rock like a table and the brick could be weakened by the inward forces on a hollow cavity.

I agree that DTT2's are overkill most of the time, but they're code now. It is what it is.

Believe it or not, a properly built brick wall is expected to flex a certain amount, and as long as the proper mortar was used, no harm done. But the same ties that keep it from falling outward also resist inward movement. :thumbsup:

 

i have yet to find any one with a finished basement willing to pay the price of the drywall repair, ect. needed to be done when using these fine Simpson brackets. Most walkouts around here have finished basements with drywall ceilings.
There is also the issue of water runing down the, through brick fastening device: bolts, rods whatever; and rotting out the bond. Bricks leak, its the reason for weep holes at the bottom. No amount of flashing will stop the water penetration through the brick.
steve scholl

 

Brick is going to repel liquid water,but it will absorb it and if the sun comes out on that side of the house it will drive the vapor inward as moisture and collect again before weeping down a wall. So alot has to happen for a 1/2" bolt to get real wet.

I have trouble seeing the corragated metal brick tie resist inward pressure.

Im in the camp that says its possible with little consequence but wouldnt do it because there are to many negatives.



Just

 

You're right, Steve; it's definitely an invasive procedure. Fortunately, in this area most finished basements, even walkouts, have suspended ceilings.

So do you just take a pass on jobs like that, when for one reason or another you can't put posts next to the foundation?

 

I take a pass on no job, and post are usually put 2 feet from the house and tacked into the brick with lag shields and screws for lateral support. Around here we are allowed a 2' front and back cantilever with the floor joist, unless there is a screeend room on the structure.
Regardless of what area a guy is in the code is written for every where and to tackle all issues. Nowhere does it state the age of the brick. I would never support a structure from the brick on anything in Detroit, as some of the brick; which is siding; and not structural is getting to be in the 60 + year age and in noway will support anything. Let alone a deck. maybe no one has seen this site: http://www.deckfailure.com/Failures.html
steve scholl

 

We are allowed 3ft over hang here. I have come across 5 different code books in the same state so far and each one has had different versions of the code. Some make life easy but some don't.

 

Well I spoke to the inspector for this area. Found out that they changed the code but if it was done correctly and deck attached to the rim joist then inspector could allow it. Also found out the same thing about the hand rails. Code says no handrail wider than 6ft but again the inspector said that as long as it strong and does not flex to much then it can be as long as ya like. Beam posts are also still allowed below grade. Which I like because this firms up the free standing deck much more than being bolted to a concrete pier.

 

So R we saying that nobody here is using expandings bolts with some lags into the rim aswell,you all open up drywall or do freestanding?..

I think the real issuer is are the bolts and weight of the deck going to crush the brick veneer.