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KBR, and electrical wiring in Iraq

9K views 56 replies 12 participants last post by  Magnettica 
#1 · (Edited)
As some of you know I am conservative in my political views. So naturally, I was watching Hannity tonight. But during commercials I flip around to see if a hockey games on or what some of the other so-called "news" channels like CNN and MSNBC are saying. Tonight I got the shock of my life.

On the Racheal Maddow show, she had on a guest discussing poor electrical wiring in Iraq. A couple of soldiers have died there because poor grounding and bonding, or lack thereof. Anyway, the guests name was, Debbie Crawford. She worked for a sub-contractor named KBR and claims she worked in the Green Zone in 2006 and spent 2 years there working for KBR as a journeymen electrician. Here is some of the interview that took place.

Host Maddow: "I know that you are an experienced electrician, you've worked all over the world, is that the kind of error -- electrical error -- is easy to make? Is it commonly made or is it something you would only do if you really didn't know what you were doing?"

Guest Debbie Crawford: "Clearly, um, that's an error..... (pause).... yeah, no, you don't do that. I haven't seen that anywhere but in Iraq."

Early on in the segment Ms Crawford presented this picture to television viewing audience:



This image projects 180 volts from "hot" to water source.

Now clearly she's not even remotely close to being an "experienced electrician" much less a "journeymen electrician" if she cannot even explain why something like this happens to a national audience even if only a few hundred people watch this awful show. This happens all over the world unfortunately (objectionable current flow) and none of us have to travel the world to know it. This objectionable current flow happens when a parallel path is made for electrons flowing back to their source. In the event that a grounded neutral conductor becomes detached from device or it's permanent termination point inside an electrical panel, ALL of the return electrons will flow on gas pipes, copper water pipes, or anything else that acts as a conductor. This is definitely negligence on behalf of any electrician who does this wether by accident or not.

Thoughts?
 
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#5 ·
directly from Ms Sparky website:

Ms Sparky’s Response:
Correct me if I’m wrong. If the hot water heater is properly grounded and bonded to a system that is properly grounded, and the breaker is functioning properly, it should have tripped on ground fault current.
duh!


Guess she's not really a journeymen electrician afterall.
 
#9 ·
I'd say the other probe lead is connected to ground.


MsSparky seems like a stand-up person.

I highly admire what she is trying to do.

You DO realize US Soldiers have been DYING from faulty wiring/etc under KBR direction?

Doesn't this infuriate you?

Why dare try to diss a woman that is STANDING UP and doing the RIGHT thing?

She seems like someone that I wouldn't hesitate to work with.
 
#10 · (Edited)
You sound like a perfect co-worker for Ms Sparky, but what I'd like to know is how you're going to get 180 volts to ground from ground to running water.

Her intentions are good but she's clearly not a journeymen electrician and I don't like that MSLSD portrayed her as one. They're notorious for lies and half truths and this is yet another example of their BS.

Why dare try to diss a woman that is STANDING UP and doing the RIGHT thing?
If she was trying to do the right thing she'd have looked for where the neutral was connected to the EGC and disconnected. It's not as if KBR wanted to kill American troops but that's how the libs want this argument to be shaped.

Have you read her blog? She's clueless as an electrician. I'm a veteran of the first Gulf War so I definitely want what's best for the troops.
 
#14 ·
I think the idea was that one probe was grounded and that the water itself was hot. This could easily happen with an improperly grounded malfunctioning pump or water heater. I believe this happened to the Marine that was killed in the shower. A bad made-in-China pump energized the water line.
 
#17 ·
You know what? I am constantly impressed with people who know their shiite and can explain it. Thank you all for taking the time to learn and do it right. As a GC, I see many hacks (I don't use them) who don't know their arse from a hole in the ground, but by God, they got a trade license. Amazing. Good tradesmen are worth their weight in gold. :thumbsup:
 
#24 ·
KBR should have gotten this problem corrected long before anyone else was injured or killed. During my time in the military, which was cut short due to Bubba's reserve cutbacks in military spending in 1993, everything was request chit this, request chit that, work order this, work order that, it seemed as if a lot of things took longer than they needed to take. Now I can only imagine the delays take even longer when a civilian company has to to do the same thing and has to run it through the military and get a work order before any work takes place. What I'm saying is a lot of this crap gets stuck going up and coming down the chain of command. Factor in the delays caused by Al Qaeda and IED's and the delay becomes even more so. Everything in the Navy for me was hurry up and wait. Perhaps the same thing happened here as terrible as that sounds.
 
#27 ·
To answer some of you people's questions.

1. The voltage is normally 3 phase, 4 wire 415/240 volt. The branch panels are normally 3 phase also.

2. Nobody inspected the systems prior to task force safe

3. The wiring is done to either NEC, the British code or the local code, it depends on who's in charge and whether it is a permanent or temp base and on whether they are run off of generators or hooked to the utility

4. Everybody does the wiring KBR, CSA, Navy SeeBees, TCM's, and the list goes on and on.

And Magneticca, don't be so quick to decide what the problem is from half a world away. There are very few EGC's in the system so any fault anywhere can energize anything metal, from bad pumps (which is what it normally is) to water heater elements, to multiple neutral to ground bonding jumpers in distribution boards.
 
#28 ·
This Has Been An Interesting Conversation

MsSparky.com has been getting quite a few hits from this link so I decided to chase it. This has been quite the interesting conversation.

I would like to thank Magnettica for starting the thread and keeping the conversation going. Regardless of whether or not you liked the interview the most important thing is, you are talking about the hazards, the shoddy work, the deaths.

The risks are equally as great for civilians as they are for our soldiers. They all deserve better than to die or be injured in the shower...or any where else for that matter.

Just keep talking about it!!! :thumbup:

Thanks
Debbie
aka Ms Sparky
MsSparky.com
 
#29 ·
Do you mean to tell me that in the green zone they can't get a crew of well-trained CE's to come in and correct these problems?

Surely you know of the Seabees.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say "they can't get a crew...." but since 2003 KBR has had the monopoly on the DoD Operations & Maintenance (O&M) contract for the majority of bases and FOB's in Iraq, Kuwait and I believe since 2001 for Afghanistan. As far as electricians went, some were qualified some weren't. But even the best electrician can't produce a quality product without tools, material and management support. We're electricians not magicians.

I know it is very difficult for people who are used to working to the NEC. Who are used to being protected by OSHA and NFPA 70E. Who are used to labor laws. They just don't/didn't apply in Iraq. You did what you were told or you were threatened to be sent home.

There is no training. No one tells you that neutral is normally black or blue (but could be any color) and that ground(earth) is normally brown (but could be any color if there is one all) and hot can be white, green, black, blue, brown or anything.

The Iraqi's and Turks could not hook up a light fixture without reversing the hot and neutral. I had several little training sessions on that.

One time I traded a six pack of beer for 3 three rolls of Scotch 33 from another contractor. So...it's not as simple as just do it right. KBR had so many roadblocks in the way it was virtually impossible. But yet we had soldiers that needed our support. So we did the best we could. The DoD has some responsibility here.

KBR actually got paid more for doing it wrong and then doing it over.

Does that clarify things?

Ms Sparky
 
#31 ·
And you were employed as an electrician by KBR, is that correct? The lady on MSLSD, Rachael Maddow, said you were an expert electrician with worldwide experience, and here you are saying how little training they provided you as an electrician. Are you really an electrician or are you on a political witch hunt against the previous administration? Because that's what I think you're all about. How come you don't work for KBR anymore?
 
#32 ·
I don't know what MSLDS means and I didn't write the script for Rachel Maddow. I have never called myself an expert in anything. I am licensed in Washington and Oregon. Look it up on-line. But, if that is all you are hearing out of all this I don't know what to tell you. Iraq was not a construction job like you would go to in the States. If you have ever worked the Nuke circuit or refinery shutdowns they all have training and orientations on the specifics of the job. It's a safety and productivity issue.

So if you just want to argue...not interested. My ONLY agenda is the safety of out soldiers and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't give a damn who the political party is as long as they are committed to protecting our troops.

Ms Sparky
 
#40 · (Edited)
Well if you were a SeeBee then you should know what kind of terrible electrical work they do. I have inspected several bases and the worst electrical work by far was that done by the SeeBees. They are also the least likely to admit it when they are told how bad it is. This isn't my opinion, it is my experience, and it is correct.

Were you a SeeBee electrician, if you were it would explain how sensitive you are?
 
#42 ·
Well if you were a SeeBee then you should know what kind of terrible electrical work they do. I have inspected several bases and the worst electrical work by far was that done by the SeeBees. They are also the least likely to admit it when they are told how bad it is. This isn't my opinion, it is my experience, and it is correct.

That was not my experience. While waiting for an 'A' school class to get enough new recruits to form a class, we helped wire a new school building. I was new to construction at the time but everything seemed to be legit to me, except the price paid for a screw driver of course.

In Saudi Arabia, we had our own SDS made up of portable generators. The wiring was pretty simple. Large twist-lock cables from the genny to an "A" box distribution point, to a "B" box distribution box, and finally to a "C" box. From there lighting was done by pre-manufactured cables (flexible cord) and same for receptacles up to I guess 30 amps. It was a long time ago when I had a strong back and a weak mind.
 
#41 ·
Ms Sparky confirms that there are no labor laws in the green zone or in Iraq anywhere. So why is it you are there doing inspections? Or are you FOS?
 
#43 ·
There were a lot of different contractors over there working on a lot of different projects. The DoD's LOGCAP contract was the largest and KBR had that. Inspections wouldn't be required by US law in Iraq. I do believe most of the contracts had some sort of Quality Inspection clauses. But I believe it was pretty much on the honor system. Some contractors had more honor than others. Also, the Army Corp had electricians performing work.

Iraq is a good sized country and nothing was done with any consistency from camp to camp.

And as all electricians know, you can take 10 journeyman and they will have 10 different levels of experience, skill, areas of expertise and work ethics.
 
#46 ·
That wasn't my experience in the Seabees, that's for sure. And I am certain if we could get some Seabees on here with some practical knowledge of the situation of which you speak, I'm sure it would be a different story. We were trained using the NEC when I went to A school in Port Hueneme, California, and that was in 1990.
 
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