[billderboots]

Ive been framing since i was a kid like most you probably since we could carry a hammer.
Ive been framing new homes for this builder for about 5 years now. they are all custom williamsburg style homes 4000sq ft and up. we just finished framing an 8 unit townhouse project. he is a penny pincher and he approached me the other day about my window framing method.
I always us a full jack stud beside the king stud then my sill board with cripplers on the bottom.
He would like to see me use just the king along the window with a split jack setup. he claims this will save material. I have not really had time to think on it i just wanted to throw this out to you fellas.
Like any of us we tend to get this weird feeling at our ass when someone picks on our framing methods. any ideas would be welcome as i know you guys are framers as well. thanks
Also is this faster or slower. stronger or weaker?

 

[A W Smith]

Storys from Bob the builder

Ive been framing since i was a kid like most you probably since we could carry a hammer.
Ive been framing new homes for this builder for about 5 years now. they are all custom williamsburg style homes 4000sq ft and up. we just finished framing an 8 unit townhouse project. he is a penny pincher and he approached me the other day about my window framing method.
I always us a full jack stud beside the king stud then my sill board with cripplers on the bottom.
He would like to see me use just the king along the window with a split jack setup. he claims this will save material. I have not really had time to think on it i just wanted to throw this out to you fellas.
Like any of us we tend to get this weird feeling at our ass when someone picks on our framing methods. any ideas would be welcome as i know you guys are framers as well. thanks
Also is this faster or slower. stronger or weaker?

he basically wants to save 6 bucks an opening, Reminds me of a builder I used to work for telling me how clever he was. Instructing his son who was framing a new house for a client to omit the 2X8 ledger for the porch roof rafters and just toe nail the rafters onto the studs of the second story wall. Nice goin Bob:thumbdown

 

[Kaiser]

It's not stronger and I can't imagine it will be any faster.

It's a cheap Hack way of framing IMO.

I'm not sure it would pass Inspection. It shouldn't

 

[Gus Dering]

When I first started out I was taught that way in upstate NY way back in the stoneages now called the early 80's. It seemed fast since we could make up the window from the top down easily.
Then I chased my first wife to the west coast and that method flew like a pig with a weight problem. The trimmer method that is

 

[Burby]

He is the GC, you are the framer.. Let him change this one thing, what will he change tomorrow? What he believes will save him 4 to $6 will cost you both money, you in labor while trying to change your correct method of framing & his because of the added time you are on the frame trying to change the method everyone has used for as long as they have framed.
His priority is or should be to have you complete your phase of the job asap to allow other trades to move in and do their job. The sooner he can close on the constuction loan for that building the more money he will save.
If he will nit pick something as little as a stud per openning, he is Bored!!!
Actually less than a stud. The only savings is a cripple each side, is that cost worth the time it will take to retrain you & your men??
If everything is nice & tight, the only difference I can see is the time "you" would be wasting having to make added measurements & cuts.
Each additional measurement or cut one of your men make, adds to your cost.
You agree to eat that cost, he will next be having you pick up and straighten bent nails.. Are you ready to begin doing this??? :no:

 

[Jayrek]

These are custom homes???

To pinch pennies like that is crazy and irresponsible. I dont care what code says, to sell a buyer a cut rate product like that is disgusting.

By the way, you are right.

 

[Kent Whitten]

I was taught this way you are speaking of, but I don't do it that way anymore.

Difficult position. I understand this guys position, but like others said here, once you relent, what will be next? It may not end.

 

[borat_borat1950]

I was taught this way you are speaking of, but I don't do it that way anymore.

Difficult position. I understand this guys position, but like others said here, once you relent, what will be next? It may not end.

I have always done it by splitting the trimmer at the sill. Problem is some of our south of the border buds don't do it right.

 

[wallmaxx]

When a GC hires me to do a framing job...it get's framed my way. He knows that up front, that's why he hires me.

I'm not the fastest, nor the cheapest.

Frame a solid structure that passes inspection first time every time and sell yourself on that strength.

The bottom line only people are the ones that want a Cadillac at Yugo prices. Good builders can sell quality workmanship to new buyers...the lazy builders don't even try to educate new buyers...they would rather beat down the subs and crank out what everyone at the bottom is cranking out.

It's funny how a buyer will pay more for a loaded Denali over a base model Yukon, but to the same person....all construction is equal and the best is the cheapest.

It takes a good selling GC to educate new buyers on what is worth spending more $$$ on and what is not.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Gold Tie]

Just wait until the h.o. decides to change the height of one of the windows and charge $300 bucks for "unlocking" the sill! (Not saying the method is a bad method. Just not your method!)

Ask the G.C. if he also want's to replace the dumpster with a storage pod so that you can bring the cut-off's to the next job!!

 

[wallmaxx]

I have always done it by splitting the trimmer at the sill. Problem is some of our south of the border buds don't do it right.

I grew up with a trimmer being a full length pre-cut stud nailed to a cripple stud (cut to support the header / ledger beam over the opening). So a trimmer is 2 or more members nailed together.

Are you saying that you cut 1 1/2" or 3" (depending on a single or double sill plate) out of the cripple, and insert the sill plate(s) at that height? That won't fly out here. We must have continuous and uninterrupted vertical load support under all beams and headers.

 

[borat_borat1950]

I grew up with a trimmer being a full length pre-cut stud nailed to a cripple stud (cut to support the header / ledger beam over the opening). So a trimmer is 2 or more members nailed together.

Are you saying that you cut 1 1/2" or 3" (depending on a single or double sill plate) out of the cripple, and insert the sill plate(s) at that height? That won't fly out here. We must have continuous and uninterrupted vertical load support under all beams and headers.

YES! solid wood to wood is structural. Do you run a solid member from the footing to a 40 foot high ridge, no you break it up. Same thing on a window, 3' window yes, 6' window run one up and split the other, no diff. Think about it!!!

 

[billderboots]

Ive always liked the idea of the jack stud one piece. I have my cut man make the jack stud just about 1/16th strong so you when building the wall lying down you drive the jack studs in after the header so as to pre-load the the jacks then we set the sill and cripples. my thinking is by breaking the jack stud you create a potential problem of possible squash problem if things just arent perfect. besides i think might be slow down the production. IMHO

 

[Gold Tie]

Ive always liked the idea of the jack stud one piece. I have my cut man make the jack stud just about 1/16th strong so you when building the wall lying down you drive the jack studs in after the header so as to pre-load the the jacks then we set the sill and cripples. my thinking is by breaking the jack stud you create a potential problem of possible squash problem if things just arent perfect. besides i think might be slow down the production. IMHO

I kinda have the same thinking. When the end of a board gets nailed it often splits (especially some of these that think they need to use 20 nails). If it splits it will then squash.

 

[A W Smith]

the way I was taught we frame with full length trimmers (we call them liners here) after the wall is raised we infill the jack and sills. I think I already mentioned this in an older thread but here goes,

cut and layout shoes and plates on deck (triplicate), layout openings and window in entirety, then stud layout pulled from a common end wall, then double plates are pulled from their shoe plates. first thing to go on the top plates are the headers, (plates are now upside down) then king studs while the wall is upside down. then we place and scribe trimmers to account for header variance. nail the full liners ( i mean trimmers) on and drop the wall. then we infill studs, drag the wall back raise it and toenail the studs to the shoe, Do all the rest of the walls then infill cripples (jacks) and sills. then block out corners.

 

[wallmaxx]

YES! solid wood to wood is structural. Do you run a solid member from the footing to a 40 foot high ridge, no you break it up. Same thing on a window, 3' window yes, 6' window run one up and split the other, no diff. Think about it!!!

Don't try that here. You will fail the county inspection. I have no idea why but it is what it is.

On the speculation side it could be a combination of seismic and shearwall requirements...who knows.

In Memphis, we had to strap the header from the cripple / liner up and over the plate and back down to the same cripple / liner on the other side for ROs over 8'.

Typ. 8' wall here

 

[mics_54]

It's actually a better method as it reduces materials, reduces thermal bridging allows for more insulation and it's faster. Obviously other rules apply for wider headers or greater loads.

 

[SLSTech]

It's actually a better method as it reduces materials, reduces thermal bridging allows for more insulation and it's faster. Obviously other rules apply for wider headers or greater loads.

Mics - what is good in one location is not good in another. Looking at his wall spec it shows Hold Down Anchors for seismic & shear consideration & framing appropriate for the snow loads in his area.

Please remember - Green Building Principles should take into consideration all the systems of the house & allow it to last. I'm sorry but looking at some of the "Advanced" Framing techniques some of them push, I wouldn't build a shed that way, much less a house. I could care less if I spend a few dollars more for heating as long as the house is still standing during a blizzard or high wind event.

By the way please put your location in your profile.

 

[A W Smith]

Don't forger a full trimmer makes a stronger wall in regards to wind loading against the window. if only singles the king stud can snap at the sill in a hurricane wind. in fact you can probably kick the wall at the sill and trimmer and snap it.

 

[mics_54]

Obviously as a GC I would be obligated to defer to the code requirements for any region. Wall systems are design engineered and placed in the codes adopted by local municipalities or as industry standards (as you know). I am a GC in a D1 seizmic zone and 110mph windload zone. If your zones require more cripples at windows then I suggest that you use them. Most of the structure I build here are 2x6 continuously sheathed walls and thermal bridging is an issue. When I took my contractors license exam they required that I also possess a residential endorsment which in turn required a certification of "Cold Climate Construction Techniques". They didn't require any special certifications in "Really Big Earthquake & Blowin like a Mofo Construction Techniques"

Where would you say they placed the most concern?