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· Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
4 units, all VRBO.

It has private water and sewer, so when power goes out, renters have no water.

He wanted to do a battery pack at first, for just the well house. That was pretty pricey, so he wants me to price a generator to run the entire complex.

4 units, all with fridge, DW, furnace, microwave, 2 with electric clothed s dryer, 2 units with hot tubs on 50A circuits.

I’ve come up with a size of 60kW. It’ll be propane, no NG out there.

Now the fun part. Service is the most interesting I’ve run into for a minute.

Plant Font Gas Facade Wood


This is the main breaker for three of the units.

After the main, it goes into a can with bus bars. I’ve never seen a poco do that, and leave it so easy to tap onto.

Then the meters.

I wanted to tap into the can, but that would make the meters run on genny power.

Here the other cabin. But the drop has a feed for a house down the road, which passes through this cabin. 😳

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Rolling Automotive exterior Gas


Gonna be a fun one to figure out. 🙄👍
 

· Eater of sins.
Doer of...things...stuff...
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5,643 Posts
That is an interesting situation you have there.

Does the AHJ consider that breaker in the right can to be the first means of disconnect then? That would seem odd.
I see a ground wire but if it is bonded to the can. I don't think so.
That would make it easy to tap the bars but weird.

Andy.
 

· Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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9,598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That is an interesting situation you have there.

Does the AHJ consider that breaker in the right can to be the first means of disconnect then? That would seem odd.
I see a ground wire but if it is bonded to the can. I don't think so.
That would make it easy to tap the bars but weird.

Andy.
It is the first point of disconnect, and N/G is bonded at that point.

As far as Code goes it’s compliant.

It’s weird that that can is accessible before the meters.

It would be a perfect place to tap for the ATS’s, except the meters on downstream of that.

So he would pay the poco for running a genny. 😳🤣
 

· Registered
Electrician
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I think cost wise it'll be best to add ats's after the meters. Messing with more than that and the poco may take issue. Idk if they'd approve this set up again.

House panel might be tricky so might even need to put a small sub for the loads since you can't snag the service conductors on it before the breaker feeding it.
 

· Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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9,598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Definitely going to go after the meters.

Just need to see how that will work. Need to go back over there.

It'll be 4 ATS for this. That's gonna push price up. And 60kW genset's aint cheap either.
 

· Registered
Electrician
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118 Posts
14kw and switch is less than 5k less wire and other parts.

60kw without the switches is about 30k

I think separate generators and switches for each unit is cheaper, less complicated, and less chance of parts being unavailable.
 

· Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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9,598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·

· Radical Basement Dweller
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I had a Generac propane unit installed 5-6 years ago for my sister. 22K for an all electric, 3 bedroom house with septic and well.
They screwed up and didn't have a 20K they quoted but used a 22K for the same price.
It was $6200 complete. Probably close to $9K today, but still worth a look.
I know a few people with them and they have been trouble free.
 

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Electrician
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:unsure:

Hmm

Gonna have to price that out. (y)

The 60 from Cummins I was looking at is about $23k, before tax and shipping. And it's a build to order.
That's a good price. Still what's the cost in switching it. You might have an easy time or hard time with it since you'll have multiple ats on one generator but I've heard it's not as difficult as it sounds. I think that house panel is going go be the most annoying to work with either way.
 

· Registered
Electrician
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I had a Generac propane unit installed 5-6 years ago for my sister. 22K for an all electric, 3 bedroom house with septic and well.
They screwed up and didn't have a 20K they quoted but used a 22K for the same price.
It was $6200 complete. Probably close to $9K today, but still worth a look.
I know a few people with them and they have been trouble free.
Single family home that's a straight forward install. This one has alot of things in way to frustrate a standard service rated ats install. Those go quick and are 2 guys in and out in a day plus the mechanical guy here to do the propane/NG. The wall here is already all meter and will be completely stuffed after this work is done.
 

· Relentless
Space Mining
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What is an ATS? Curious minds want to know.
 

· Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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9,598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Me, before reading this thread: "I can install recessed can lights and know the difference between the line and load sides of a gfci so I'm basically a full blown electrician at this point".

Me, after trying to read this thread: "What the fuq did you guys even just say? Was that even English?"

That’s why guys who can’t cut a 2x4 straight without using a speed square, become electricians. Makes ‘em feel smart and talented. 🤣🤣🤣
 

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Me, before reading this thread: "I can install recessed can lights and know the difference between the line and load sides of a gfci so I'm basically a full blown electrician at this point".
I’ll see if I could help you understand?
The big bars would allow juice for free, but they keep cost down. He can stab four boxes in cheaper than one to handle all the load, but the unit in the crib in the back has the neighbors load running through it, he hast to be careful otherwise he’s paying for the voltage twice, but either way this Mac daddy is going to make a boatload of money!

I hope that helps😂
 

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Rewire it to one master meter owned by POCO, install landlord/HO owned meters for rented units , bury the meter charge in the rent......~25.00$ month each unit......75.00$ a month added income once paid for.

Then you could single switch the gen set to between Master Meter and splitter panel..... Win- Win -WIn + added income/cheaper rent....😉

Legal here, but still unusual....
And Owner 'Could' bill generator power at different tariff rate to tenants to cover L.P. etc....
 

· Registered
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Rewire it to one master meter owned by POCO, install landlord/HO owned meters for rented units , bury the meter charge in the rent......~25.00$ month each unit......75.00$ a month added income once paid for.

Then you could single switch the gen set to between Master Meter and splitter panel..... Win- Win -WIn + added income/cheaper rent....😉

Legal here, but still unusual....
And Owner 'Could' bill generator power at different tariff rate to tenants to cover L.P. etc....
Each unit of the building is responsible for their own service from the power company. The POCO bills each tenant, the service/bill is in the tenants name. Only way I've ever seen it done on a "true" apartment building.

If it wasn't done this way the landlord would be responsible to pay for all of the power to the building.

Tom
 

· Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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9,598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
As far as I know, no one except a power company who is registered and under the direction of, the Public Utilities Commission, may sell power.

I’ve installed sub-meters at multi-unit commercial facilities, but that was so the tenants, who were already splitting the power bill, could split it more fairly.

As far as re-wiring the entire thing, it would certainly make my part easier, but it’s a tough sell to a customer. As long as power flows, they don’t generally care what it looks like.

And on this one, I get the feeling I’m going to have to come up with the most economical solution, or I won’t be doing anything over there.
 

· Eater of sins.
Doer of...things...stuff...
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5,643 Posts
Rewire it to one master meter owned by POCO, install landlord/HO owned meters for rented units , bury the meter charge in the rent......~25.00$ month each unit......75.00$ a month added income once paid for.

Then you could single switch the gen set to between Master Meter and splitter panel..... Win- Win -WIn + added income/cheaper rent....😉

Legal here, but still unusual....
And Owner 'Could' bill generator power at different tariff rate to tenants to cover L.P. etc....

Now that sounds like the right idea.

Andy.
 
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