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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm having adjuster after adjuster saying they won't pay for step, or wall flashing.

They all keep saying the same thing recently. "You can reuse the existing flashing."

When I reply back to the adjuster that it will not survive the tear off, they say... "Your crews are doing it wrong, and they need to be more careful".

This is really irritating me to no end, as we have to replace it, as it does not all survive the tear off, let alone being able to be guaranteed watertight. I don't care what they say.

So the latest 50 sq job has 150 LF of step, 40 LF of wall, & 40 LF of copper counter. Once again, the adjuster denied flashings, and said to reuse it.

So.... I would appreciate some thoughts and ideas on how to give a "Proper" argument to the INS adjusters as to why we need them to include new flashing on a full replacement. Everything I have said doesn't seem to work, so I could use a hand here guys.

Thanks in advance! :thumbsup:
 

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Well... If the copper wall flashing is cleated (not nailed to the roof full of holes) technically it doesn't require replacing.

Step flashing however- that should always be replaced. If it's done in all of your projects and par for the course bill them anyways.

Include with your bill:

Most manufactures require new or new condition flashing details and photo the ugly. Specifically the brand (if known) being replaced as well as the new product and their specs.

Are you inspected? If so call the BI office and chat em up- find the codes in the book, link or copy.

Go to your manufacturers installation requirements. Link or copy.

Back to your standard install (not just insurance work) if you do it every time involve your customer.

Is your signed contract with homeowner specifying replacing? Send that in. This is your best option.

Involving your customer by expressing your concerns with reusing the original flashing, prompting they pay, or they contact adjuster or sign this here release from responsibility of any and all possible leaks as a result of reusing holed up step.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for the reply. I will get a waiver signed if the INS refuses payment, and the HO won't pay either. I just hate to do that. We have to eat that cost. I am not going to walk away from a 50 sq job just coming out of one of the most brutal winters in 20 years.


We always replace all the step, and the wall, but "IF" we can reuse the counter we will, if it still good, and give it a new coat of paint if it is anything but copper.

The copper on this roof is above bay windows against brick, with Minimal shingles, and two rows of ridge cap per unit. Copper is not only nailed thru the shingles, it is folded under/over and silicone in each corner to the existing shingles. Yeah....... Reuse them he says.

I always talk to the home owners, about this, and explain it to them. My issue is the adjusters denial for replacement, and I want to take care of it on the adjustment, or after I seen their estimate, and supplement it if needed.

This job has more items not included, Such as 20 yr 3-tab pricing for 30 year arch 15# felt on a 10/12p, no drip, no starter, no I&WS, no ridge cap for the ridge vent, but I will get all that taken care of.

Flashing is my number 1 issue with them all these days.
 

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I don't even bid insurance work any more, because of this type of problem.
I always tell people you have the best insurance in the world, until you have a claim.
One adjuster told me they would pay to remove the top layer of shingles, but not the 1st layer. They said the top layer was the only one effected and the insurance company doesn't pay for something that is not damaged.

If someone is persistent, I price it out just like I normally would and let the homeowner fight with the insurance company. I don't have time to deal with them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah, The Lou is famous for multi layers. The more the merrier they believe for some reason. LOL!

I wish we didn't have to do any INS work ever! Sadly, we have too, as that makes up half of our income.

So far suggested are...

Send the IBC/IRC adopted codes
( I have the up to date codes & do this regularly )

Send a requirement of flashings from the manufacturer
(not sure this will be acceptable because we chose the product, not them)

Send pictures of the bad, impossible to replace flashings to INS.
(Hoping a desk adjuster see's it and agrees?)

Let the home owner fight it out with the INS, and bill the HO for it regardless.
( I hope they can afford it, as not everybody can)

I like to use analogies when applicable to help people understand what I mean. If you have a good one that applies to flashing replacement, please, share.

Thanks!
 

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if I run into the 2nd layer & flashing thing. I told them No Warranty . They usually give in. Usually based on $ for square unless it unusal job. I had good rep with all the insurance companys and adjusters ( have asked to check something for them on steep roofs they arn't comfortable climbing ! or led tham a ladder.)
 

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Ive had good luck getting insurance companys to include my add ons. I take pictures, write a simple report (I.e. cliff notes pointing to pics) and say in the email that it is a absolutely necessary to replace or repair what I say needs replaced or repaired. I also ask them to confirm that they received the email. 95% of the time I get the inclusion.

I dont do much insurance work, though. So my poll may be somewhat skewed.
 

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I don't even bid insurance work any more, because of this type of problem.
I always tell people you have the best insurance in the world, until you have a claim.
One adjuster told me they would pay to remove the top layer of shingles, but not the 1st layer. They said the top layer was the only one effected and the insurance company doesn't pay for something that is not damaged.

If someone is persistent, I price it out just like I normally would and let the homeowner fight with the insurance company. I don't have time to deal with them.
that has been my approach as well. I give the customer a proposal detailing how I am going to do the project and what the cost is. where the customer gets the money from is not my concern- but I gauranty that my cost is going to be well above what the insurance company will pay for---- not my problem. I am not interested in spending any time on the phone talking to the insurance company-because they are not my customer. Our work well exceeds the building code and the insurance company wants work BELOW the building code.

Stephen
 

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Most will say anything to save insurance company money, because that is what they suppose to do...If they keep covering everything they be out of a job.

I was in a few situations like this before, not only with the flashing issue... I told people you do need it and show them the standard of industry installation instructions, or building code, etc. They paid extra and eventually disputed the claim and got reimbursement.
Keep in mind most customers happy to see get anything, so they just say f'it and don't dispute the facts.
But when you call your insurance company, the adjuster is not involved anymore, and when you have paper work showing otherwise what he said it...all they will say is " I'm sorry, what was he thinking about when he said it don't needed and cut you a check" It's all a game they like to play.
 

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Most will say anything to save insurance company money, because that is what they suppose to do...If they keep covering everything they be out of a job.

I was in a few situations like this before, not only with the flashing issue... I told people you do need it and show them the standard of industry installation instructions, or building code, etc. They paid extra and eventually disputed the claim and got reimbursement.
Keep in mind most customers happy to see get anything, so they just say f'it and don't dispute the facts.
But when you call your insurance company, the adjuster is not involved anymore, and when you have paper work showing otherwise what he said it...all they will say is " I'm sorry, what was he thinking about when he said it don't needed and cut you a check" It's all a game they like to play.
GREG^^^^^^^ at keast in my experience.

In my limited experience, it has been like GREG.

The ins company initial/adjuster, will take his best low ball shot, and if it is not challenged by the installer or customer, they save money. But if it is challenged/documented by the installer/HO, it's "oh.... how did our adjuster miss that."

I think their biggest trick involves claims that are not immediately requiring repair.... like a roof that has hail damage but no leak, or a small car dent.....

They send the customer a low ball check for the damage, either based on substantial depreciation (when replacement terms exist), or their office adjusters corrected estimate to repair, (for a car dent).....

And they hope the HO will be strapped for cash, and just take the check and cash it, rather then have the ins company have to pay for the full repair costs.

It's a game......and a negotiation.....like most everything today.

Best

Peter
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I am aware of all the games the Adjusters play. I am also aware they are just doing their job, and what they are told to do by the higher ups. I get along with most of them as I keep in mind they helpless most of the time. Their manager has set the tone, as corporate is pulling the strings. I always try to leave them with a handshake and a genuine smile.

Every now & then I will come across an adjuster who had a bad day, and needs an outlet. It's not me he is hurting, it's the Home Owner. I take care of them the best I can after the smoke has cleared.

I am going to have a nice talk with our code enforcement today and see if they will sign a letter stating we have to use new flashing quoting the code for me. I dislike having to do it this way. I feel it should be taken care of in a more civilized manner from the beginning, with the adjuster. I should not have to fight them, for what they already know they should be doing.
 

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I am aware of all the games the Adjusters play. I am also aware they are just doing their job, and what they are told to do by the higher ups. I get along with most of them as I keep in mind they helpless most of the time. Their manager has set the tone, as corporate is pulling the strings. I always try to leave them with a handshake and a genuine smile.

Every now & then I will come across an adjuster who had a bad day, and needs an outlet. It's not me he is hurting, it's the Home Owner. I take care of them the best I can after the smoke has cleared.

I am going to have a nice talk with our code enforcement today and see if they will sign a letter stating we have to use new flashing quoting the code for me. I dislike having to do it this way. I feel it should be taken care of in a more civilized manner from the beginning, with the adjuster. I should not have to fight them, for what they already know they should be doing.
Great point GMAN..... Most adjusters are just trying to earn a living,..and they have to perform to corporate practices......and they are atuned to whether a customer is knowledgeable or likely to be able to be "fooled/blown-off/accepting " of their figures.

We had a hail storm in Denver, and I helped numerous claimants as to advice. The varience in authorized repairs was enormous, and sure seemed to be related to the customers knowledge.... several single ladies got initially blown off.... while several customers that were paying close attention received initial very complete damage repairs.

But, being nice and knowledgeable with the adjuster is by far the best practice.
 

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MTN REMODEL LLC said:
GREG^^^^^^^ at keast in my experience. In my limited experience, it has been like GREG. The ins company initial/adjuster, will take his best low ball shot, and if it is not challenged by the installer or customer, they save money. But if it is challenged/documented by the installer/HO, it's "oh.... how did our adjuster miss that." I think their biggest trick involves claims that are not immediately requiring repair.... like a roof that has hail damage but no leak, or a small car dent..... They send the customer a low ball check for the damage, either based on substantial depreciation (when replacement terms exist), or their office adjusters corrected estimate to repair, (for a car dent)..... And they hope the HO will be strapped for cash, and just take the check and cash it, rather then have the ins company have to pay for the full repair costs. It's a game......and a negotiation.....like most everything today. Best Peter
The first check is usually just the ACV check and pays for the loss not the replacement. You don't have to replace the roof if you don't want and they aren't obligated to pay replacement if you don't.

Flashing has always been hard. The best tactic I have used is just bringing local applicable building codes. Insurance companies must pay to replace to code in most states. Have copies of the codes printed out with your estimate. Learning Xactimate would also help a lot. If you use Xactimate make sure to include the notes from each line item that are appropriate.
 

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that has been my approach as well. I give the customer a proposal detailing how I am going to do the project and what the cost is. where the customer gets the money from is not my concern- but I gauranty that my cost is going to be well above what the insurance company will pay for---- not my problem. I am not interested in spending any time on the phone talking to the insurance company-because they are not my customer. Our work well exceeds the building code and the insurance company wants work BELOW the building code.

Stephen

That's exactly how we handle insurance jobs. Not my problem if my bid is higher than the insurance pays out.
 

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You know what would be great?

Well since the OP doesn't want to know, I'll ask. What would be great?


That the storm chasers should stop dragging the roofing industry pricing down and working for the peanuts the insurance company gives them? Or the storm chasers should start doing quality work and bring their prices back to real world standards? Or storm chasers should stop substituting quantity over quality to make up for the loss of income on each jobs potential, by having the "more is better attitude"? Or the storm chasers should stop calling them "restoration contractors"?

The very few insurance jobs we have done go like this. Building owner calls us, we provide estimate. The same numbers are used insurance claim or now. We hand said numbers over to building owner. A signed contract is sent back to us, we do the work, a check comes in, contact is paid in full and we move on.

I did have one insurance job a couple years ago, provided the estimate and the insurance company sent me their estimate, (I have no idea why I could careless what someone who has never worked roofing says what a roof should cost to replace). I look it over and laugh, it's about 1/3 of what I proposed. Emails are exchanged basically me telling him that was my price. Then of course finally the "why" does it cost so much came out. I explained to him that even though he was gracious enough to allow $500 for a crane that was not real world pricing, small town job about 1.5 hours away from the nearest crane. So he upped that price, I informed him that while he did allow for a 2 layer tear off, he didn't account for the 4 other layers that had been mopped/torched on, nor had he allowed extra for set up on this 30'X30' roof that was 80' tall surrounded by Morten buildings, I also informed him that climbing a wooden ladder inside the building was a time factor and getting trash down, safety were huge factors. He's numbers were spot on for a 1 layer tear off on a 1 story building.


@OP quit bowing down to the insurance company, your price is your price. You have to honer the work when it's done, flashings should be replaced, unless they were a 2 piece design to begin with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
1985gt....

Never said I don't replace flashing, I said the exact opposite. We invoice for our work, but sometimes the property owner has to pay for the work that the INS wouldn't. We always inform them that the price is the price, before hand. My entire point of this thread was to see if it was happening anywhere else to anybody else that felt like sharing.

We always replace all the step, and the wall, but "IF" we can reuse the counter we will, if it still good, and give it a new coat of paint if it is anything but copper.
Storm chaser??? Because half our earnings are INS claims were a storm chaser? Really?

I wish we didn't have to do any INS work ever! Sadly, we have too, as that makes up half of our income.
Roofcheck, I never seen where you asked for my location. I have no idea what the relevance to this topic is, but we are located in the St Louis area, and deal with a lot of bad storms here.

We are still working on building new homes from last springs tornadoes as the INS companies dragged them out and wouldn't pay the owners for repairs until recently. Sad deal. We do new construction, re-roofs for real estate agencies / property management companies, and are also referred by major INS company brokers to their clients. Storm repair is just part of it. Return calls from past clients happen all the time. Repeat biz is one thing I strive for by making a solid relationship with the client. A reference is golden, and everybody should strive for it.

This is just silly to me. I asked a simple question about something that has been happening in the INS side of the industry. I have been called a storm chaser, and right off the bat my location is important for posting in this thread. I'm done here. Thanks for the replies guys, but I can get a beat down by the wife if I wanted one.
 
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