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Painting Contractor
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Discussion Starter #1
My brother owns a retail business in a strip mall. It is a fitness club. Being a fitness club they are bumping music all day long. The Armed Services recruiting station next door is complaining about the noise.

The wall is 18' high with all but 1' - 2' at the top being drywall.



We spoke with a sound proofing expert in California and his suggestion would cost nearly $5000 in materials alone and we would have to do all the work ourselves. We are more than willing to do all the work ourselves.

We need an inexpensive way to sheild them from the sound. something to dampen the noise even a little bit.

This is a very real problem that needs to be solved fast, as they are already threatening to have him evicted and the landlords seem to be in the corner of recruiters.

Does any one have any suggestions or experience with sound proofing?
 

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DGR,IABD
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If cost is the main factor, it seems like fiberglass batts is gonna be your least expensive route. Those pipes and conduits passing through the wall will pass sound pretty effectively on their own. With no celing in that space (is it still that way?) even the roof decking will transmit the sound. The 5K proposed remediation by the sound contractor sounds pretty cheap to me in any event, especially if it comes with a performance guarantee.
 

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Painting Contractor
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Discussion Starter #3
mdshunk said:
With no celing in that space (is it still that way?)
Yea it's still that way. It would have cost a lot more to install a drop ceiling than to have your little brothers painting company paint it ;). And we felt it would look a lot 'cooler' raw. We were right on both counts.

I hadn't thought about the conduit transfering sound. So bassically what your saying is install some fiberglass insulation on top of the existing steel gap?

Another question comes up. What is the direct corolation of R-value to sound dampening? There has got to be some figures out there on it. I'm off to do a google search.

Thanks MD
 

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Whatever you decide make sure it is fire proof. We had a tragic fire (nightclub) in Rhode Island a couple of years from sound proofing that was brought in by the band.
 

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Unfortunately, there is nothing cheap that I know of. You are covering a wide range of frequencies and each needs to be stopped. Sound walls can be 6-10" thick and cost mega bucks.
That looks like a big place. Maybe wireless headsets might be the answer. If your'e bumpin', there is nothing that you can do. Low freqs go through everything.
 

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Sound is a tough one, the best soundproofing is not pink insulation, it's mass. put in resilient channel and another layer of drywall would help. Then there's the heavy rubber mats that will do the most, but like md says $5000 sounds cheap for that stuff. Check out this site, not totally helpful, but gives you some info, Rich. http://soundproofing.org/infopages/faqs.htm
 

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Mass is true but you have to address the entire freq. range. Lead is still the preferred hi freq. killer. Variable density foams, wood, etc. help absorb low densities.
If you are pumping in the really low Hz, there is no help. Blue Whales can communicate over 3,500 miles of open ocean with low feqs.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Teetorbilt said:
Mass is true but you have to address the entire freq. range. Lead is still the preferred hi freq. killer. Variable density foams, wood, etc. help absorb low densities.
If you are pumping in the really low Hz, there is no help. Blue Whales can communicate over 3,500 miles of open ocean with low feqs.
There isn't even a subwoofer being used. It's basically two four inch tweeters putting out the mid range bass.

We were thinking of angleing out the top two feet with OSB or drywall. Then blowing insulation in behind it. What do you think?

Another question. This is a strip mall with metel stud walls. The wall in question is an interior wall, obviously. Do builders typically put insulation in interior walls in commercial spaces?
 

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DGR,IABD
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Humble Abode said:
The wall in question is an interior wall, obviously. Do builders typically put insulation in interior walls in commercial spaces?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I did a tennant refit for a Quizno's sub shop a few months ago, and there was no insulation in the common walls.
 

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DGR,IABD
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Humble Abode said:
The wall in question is an interior wall, obviously. Do builders typically put insulation in interior walls in commercial spaces?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I did a tennant refit for a Quizno's sub shop a few months ago, and there was no insulation in the common walls. I had to fish for an extra receptacle in a common wall at a Chinese Buffet place recently and there was insulation in that wall. I guess you might just have to cut a hole in somewhere and look. Regardless, the drywall is screwed right on the studs, and they transmit sound very well. This is why the resiliant Z channels are used on the studs in soundproofing applications. If your space was being refit for, say, a doctor's or lawyer's office or somthing like that, they'd in all likelihood build an entire insulated wall an inch or two inboard of the existing common wall. I've seen that done many times.
 

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...jammin
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Humble Abode said:
We spoke with a sound proofing expert in California and his suggestion would cost nearly $5000 in materials alone and we would have to do all the work ourselves. We are more than willing to do all the work ourselves.

We need an inexpensive way to sheild them from the sound. something to dampen the noise even a little bit.

Does any one have any suggestions or experience with sound proofing?
Yes I am a sound proofing/deadening dealer/installer
It's not my primary, it just sort of worked out that way
I am by no means an acoustician
But I do use one that works for the vender

$5000 doesn't sound out of line, but exactly what did he suggest for the $5000 (the acousticians tend to go a bit overboard, what we consider OK and what they consider OK can be a bit different)

I'll tell you what I think
In this situation, homesote would have been nice under the drywall
Or a sound proof super-high density fabric under there
Even on just the shared wall
It doesn't sound like you guys have the time for that kind of retro-fit project now
If you think you can get the drywall down and up again quickly it may be worth considering

It needs a drop ceiling stat, and some of the ceiling panels should be Base-Eaters
Some Sound Absorbing Panels on the walls will help also
They are amazing at absorbing sound

None of this is cheap, but maybe he can start with a few wall panels and if it helps, but not enough, order more
Looks like he'll need a bunch though
It could be less than 5K and might do it
I think he may need that drop ceiling though...I really think that's key

Let me know if you're interested, I'll try and send some info you're way

Very important:
The horrible nightclub fire in RI really hammers home the point about cheap sound insulation
(I am a musician in several bands that play around New England)
I see that stuff all the time and have used it before
Thoughts of The Station fire still sends chills down my spine
Just don't do it...

Also: There is no technical correlation between r-value and sound deadening properties
As mentioned above, what's good for heat/cold insulation is not good for sound insulation
There is a scale like the R-value, but for acoustics
You just don't see it except on specialty materials, such as we are discussing here
 

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There is a sound proofing that I used in between party wall in condos units. I don't remember the name but is about 3/4" thick we called it sound board. I am sure it is cheap or relatively inexpensive because they let the framer install it. LOL
 

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Painting Contractor
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Discussion Starter #13
slickshift said:
Yes I am a sound proofing/deadening dealer/installer
It's not my primary, it just sort of worked out that way
I am by no means an acoustician
But I do use one that works for the vender

$5000 doesn't sound out of line, but exactly what did he suggest for the $5000 (the acousticians tend to go a bit overboard, what we consider OK and what they consider OK can be a bit different)

I'll tell you what I think
In this situation, homesote would have been nice under the drywall
Or a sound proof super-high density fabric under there
Even on just the shared wall
It doesn't sound like you guys have the time for that kind of retro-fit project now
If you think you can get the drywall down and up again quickly it may be worth considering

It needs a drop ceiling stat, and some of the ceiling panels should be Base-Eaters
Some Sound Absorbing Panels on the walls will help also
They are amazing at absorbing sound

None of this is cheap, but maybe he can start with a few wall panels and if it helps, but not enough, order more
Looks like he'll need a bunch though
It could be less than 5K and might do it
I think he may need that drop ceiling though...I really think that's key

Let me know if you're interested, I'll try and send some info you're way

Very important:
The horrible nightclub fire in RI really hammers home the point about cheap sound insulation
(I am a musician in several bands that play around New England)
I see that stuff all the time and have used it before
Thoughts of The Station fire still sends chills down my spine
Just don't do it...

Also: There is no technical correlation between r-value and sound deadening properties
As mentioned above, what's good for heat/cold insulation is not good for sound insulation
There is a scale like the R-value, but for acoustics
You just don't see it except on specialty materials, such as we are discussing here
I was afraid someone would say that... it's very depressing news. The last thing we want to do is install drop ceilings. Couldn't we just build out the section of wall in the area where we were losing the sound?

this picture is a mess but...


Framing it out where the drywall ends to the ceiling at a 45 degree angle and blowing insulation down behind?
 

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...jammin
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It'll help but not nearly enough, not even close
You've got a giant metal echo chamber up there
You have to stop the sound from bouncing around up there
If you really want to keep the open ceiling...
Hmmm....
You could suspend some sound absorbing panels up there
I'll look at the pics again, did you include some dimensions I don't recall?
That could help if you didn't already
I'll be back
 

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...jammin
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You don't have a pic of what it looks like finished do you?
How big is that wall?
Can you put up some firring strips and another wall over that one, or is that too much?
 

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DGR,IABD
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Humble... I think you're under the mistaken impression that the only area trasferring sound is that 2' area at the top of the wall that only appears to have one layer of drywall. The slab, the roof deck, the conduits, and the entire common wall itself are transferring sound to varying degrees. While mitigating sound transmission at the top of the wall should help, it's not the be all and end all of your problem.
 

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...jammin
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I have to agree with mdshunk
The whole wall is an issue here
...sigh...that wall is huge isn't it?
I was looking at the mud patches and figured where the studs were

OK, Your plan with the angled ceiling
Frame it out and "drywall" it with homesote first, then sheetrock
It's gonna be hairy cutting hole for those tubes in the homesote
Maybe a layer of this

"...To Block Noise
Increases Wall Mass without increasing its Depth -- just 1/8" thick! STC=27
Prevents unwanted sound transmission through walls, ceilings, and floors.
54 inches wide.
Available in full rolls ... or by the linear foot."

I think you should cover the whole wall with this stuff or homesote and put up another wall over it, that would probably do it

Next up I'd consider some sound absorbing panels
I'd get the hanging kind and suspend them from the ceiling

Stick them up im between tose pipes and absorb some of that sound bouncing around up there

If that's not enough I'd put in some big sound absorbing panels on the walls
You can get them as big as 4' x 10'

But really what you want to do is block the sound
You're angle ceiling and that dense vinyl barrier on that wall would probably do it
You'll still have "The slab, the roof deck, the conduits" but at least the wall would be good
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
slickshift said:
...sigh...that wall is huge isn't it?
Yea it's friggin enormous. It's about 20' tall and over 150' long. The picture I am using is just a small section of it. You guys have been awesome *thank* you so much for your responses.

*EDIT=thank you, not, that you lol I was in a hurry*
 

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Slickshift has offered some valuable info.
My level of expertise falls into two catagories, home theaters and engine room sound control on yachts.
 
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