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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I already know what the answer is gonna be, but I'll throw it out there anyway.


With all the new WP membranes out there, it seeems not too many people waterproof with tar paper anymore. But what's your opinion on doing a shower niche with tar paper? Guaranteed fail? Or just risky?

I know there are thousands of existing shower installations with tar paper that perform just fine, but the horizontal thing gives me pause.


Disclaimers: Yes, for a customer it should be the most fool-proof installation you can come up with, if only to limit you own liability. I know that.

Yes, there is a good reason why I am considering this as an option.



Thanks



Delta
 

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You could do a niche with paper or nothing with the right materials installed right - single sheets of stone or tile, full mud base, slightest slope or even parts of those. Why?
 

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General Contractor
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Why bother with this being stupid or not.
Today they make pre-made leak proof niches ready for tile installation and they make them almost any size and shapes.
There is no need to bother with anything else and waste all that time on making sure they will not leak.
 

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If my PO asks,I set tile
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Delta said:
there is a good reason why I am considering this as an option.
oh do enlighten us...:whistling
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, here's the reasoning behind the question.

First, I don't do shower surrounds myself. I sub those out. I don't have the confidence in my tile skills yet. But I am working with tile more and more. I'll do floors and countertops.

The reason for the tar paper:

I know premade niches are available, but I prefer to make my own. It's a craftmanship thing. I have a tough time when I get to the point where I feel more like an assembler of premade items, than a true Builder. Some I'm sure will not understand or disagree.

I know that millions of showers and baths were constructed before Redguard, Nobleseal, and Schluter. Fine products all, but I am trying to build more and more without dependence on corporate manufactured products. Not a green building thing, more of a philosophy.

This particular experiment is not on a customers home. I am my own guinea pig.

Tar paper, (asphalt or oil impregnated cotton-felt or cellulose paper) has been around for a long, long time. It was used with success long before Liquid Waterproof Membranes came on the scene.

So there you have it. Some, I'm sure, will think I'm nuts.

Thank you to all who have given advice.





Delta
 

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Well, here's the reasoning behind the question.

First, I don't do shower surrounds myself. I sub those out. I don't have the confidence in my tile skills yet. But I am working with tile more and more. I'll do floors and countertops.

The reason for the tar paper:

I know premade niches are available, but I prefer to make my own. It's a craftmanship thing. I have a tough time when I get to the point where I feel more like an assembler of premade items, than a true Builder. Some I'm sure will not understand or disagree.

I know that millions of showers and baths were constructed before Redguard, Nobleseal, and Schluter. Fine products all, but I am trying to build more and more without dependence on corporate manufactured products. Not a green building thing, more of a philosophy.

This particular experiment is not on a customers home. I am my own guinea pig.

Tar paper, (asphalt or oil impregnated cotton-felt or cellulose paper) has been around for a long, long time. It was used with success long before Liquid Waterproof Membranes came on the scene.

So there you have it. Some, I'm sure, will think I'm nuts.

Thank you to all who have given advice.

Delta
I don't understand your bull**** mentality, but if the old way is how you want to roll that's fine. Mud showers are still built today and are arguably as good or better than any new fancy stuff on the market.

So put your 15# paper on, nail diamond lath, throw on a scratch coat of mortar, then screen on a finish coat, then thinset your tiles on.
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Traditional mudpans are certainly on my list of skills to learn. :thumbsup:





Delta
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The master-bath addition I'm working on currently has a tub-shower combo. I paper the walls, but now I'm considering a niche. Paper works fine on walls, but I wanted more opinions on the niche part.

Am I making sense yet? :laughing:




Delta
 

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The master-bath addition I'm working on currently has a tub-shower combo. I paper the walls, but now I'm considering a niche. Paper works fine on walls, but I wanted more opinions on the niche part.

Am I making sense yet? :laughing:

Delta
Not a damn bit, gimme details...you put tar paper on the walls? Then what are you doing with it? Leaving exposed tar paper for that rustic look?
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Not a damn bit, gimme details...you put tar paper on the walls? Then what are you doing with it? Leaving exposed tar paper for that rustic look?
:rolleyes:

Oh, boy...Trying to explain tile work to an LV guy. :laughing:

Tub goes in. Studs furred out. Paper goes on wall. HardiBacker goes on wall. Thinset goes on wall. Tile goes on wall. Grout goes between tiles. Sealer goes on grout and tile. Wife goes in shower. :thumbsup:




Delta
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Now, you decide to add a niche. Usually, you cut it out after some tile is up, so grout lines line up.

In this case, you build the box first. Then you paper the wall and the box, same technique as papering a window opening, for example.

Entiendes ahora, amigo?





Delta
 

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:rolleyes:

Oh, boy...Trying to explain tile work to an LV guy. :laughing:

Tub goes in. Studs furred out. Paper goes on wall. HardiBacker goes on wall. Thinset goes on wall. Tile goes on wall. Grout goes between tiles. Sealer goes on grout and tile. Wife goes in shower. :thumbsup:

Delta
That's not very old fashion if you are using Hardi.

I know how to build a shower, in fact I was doing tile work this week. ;)
You could build the niche in the same way, just pitch the shelves for drainage.
 

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Goin' Down in Flames....
Highwayman
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That's not very old fashion if you are using Hardi.

Not trying to be old-fashioned. :rolleyes:


I know how to build a shower, in fact I was doing tile work this week. ;)


You could build the niche in the same way, just pitch the shelves for drainage.

That's the (tentative) plan. :thumbsup:





Delta
 

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You said you were trying to avoid pre-manufactured products. Hardi is just that.

I see no problem with your method but I'd rather skip the tar paper and slap on a couple coats of liquid ontop.

Tiling shower walls is easier than a floor.
 

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Paul
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I build my niches to size for every job as well. Like you say, to align grout joints and give a better overall finished look. I typically build mine out of cabinet grade plywood and waterproof them with Aqua Defense or Hydroban. Most of the time I don't even cut the opening until I've tiled a course or two below where I want it.

I build the pitch into the base and silicone the joints after assembly. If it has a shelf those are pitched also. I don't see the point of doing it any other way. Pre-built niches are expensive and never the right size.
 
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I build my niches to size for every job as well. Like you say, to align grout joints and give a better overall finished look. I typically build mine out of cabinet grade plywood and waterproof them with Aqua Defense or Hydroban. Most of the time I don't even cut the opening until I've tiled a course or two below where I want it.

I build the pitch into the base and silicone the joints after assembly. If it has a shelf those are pitched also. I don't see the point of doing it any other way. Pre-built niches are expensive and never the right size.
I built mine out of plywood then Angus showed me the light using a piece of rigid Styrofoam.
 

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This is how I interpreted angus doing them and since he wasn't around to ask this is how I do them now. Shower I'm working on right now. I do it the same way precision said, 1st course went in, and I laid them out dead center of the next tile. Room Property Wall Bathroom House Tile Wall Room Flooring Rectangle Wall Tile Glass Room Architecture Tile Property Room Bathroom Floor

It's 1/2" foam for everything except the bottom which is 2". Kerdi fixed together and aqua D to waterproof.
 
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