I think it is anything below 5/12

 

3/12's. I like to ice and water flat roofs too. Of course we only do a few squares of flat on a roof on average. It is overkill but worth it.

Put Winterguard on my whole house and detached garage, 6/12 and 8/12. Gonna be a real pain to tear off now.

 

Dougger, Why would you Winterguard your whole house unless it's a 3/12 pitch. If roofed right it will shed water fine. I'm asking you because I have a feeling you are a great roofer and would be fine without it.

 

After I put the two rows of Winterguard on I looked up and thought oh what the heck. Plus had a few rolls laying around from other jobs. Winterguarding my whole house did not impress my neighbors. So far two have had there roofs done this year without even calling me for a bid. Think they both signed up with storm chasers. Small homes anyways. One did an ok job with Burnt Sienna Landmarks but used open valley unpainted and cut back several inches. On such a small house you can really see the shiny open valley. The other was a total hack job with 20-25 year white three tabs. My roof was a whopping 12 sqaures and the garage was 7 squares. Two story plus a basement. The house is a 5/12 and the garage is a 8/12. At some point in my houses life it went from a 9/12 to a 5/12. The shingles I tore off were about 10 years old and put on brand new plywood and trusses. The chimney shows the old roof line by the counter flashing. The house was built in 1936 and it's never been in a fire.

Bet it would have been leak proof with just Landmarks.

 

He might just have been pushing that on you. Unless that roof has no slope or very little then a good synthetic underlayment should be fine. With ice and water first 3 feet or 6 feet

The reason why dougger222 did that was because he wanted to show off to the neighbors:laughing::clap:

 

Install a proper roof system for the slope and region and you don't need it. Can't say it enough, if you are depending on underlayment, it's the wrong system.

 

slate,tile and metal roofing really DO depend on a good underlayment. espeacially in coatal areas that are prone to wind driven rain and ice. a shingled roof is designed to shed water its not an impermeable barrier. I know "common sence".

 

Then what is all that expensive roofing for? Ballast?? None of my slate or metal roofs rely on underlayment. Many of them don't even have any underlayment.

If you must rely on underlayment, you are putting on the wrong system.

 

If you dont use underlayment at all then you are proclaiming yourself to be an Idiot. Ever heard of building code or manufactour specs ? Never mind common sence. Oh well it creates work for a guy like me to rip it off and redo in a year or two.
RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

 

LOL!!!

Just kidding about the Landmark only comment. In MN you even have to use valley flashing with closed valleys.

In some parts of Canada you don't need no stinkin underlayments. Saw roofers shingling three tabs on top of a 3 story 6/12 building last Spring with no ice and water and no paper. Thunder Bay Ontario to be exact, across from Perkins.

 

rofl, he called me an idiot. classy

 

I didnt call you one, you would make yourself out to be if you think you know better than time tested good roofing practices. I will give you some free roofing 101 advise. a shingled system is not like a weather barrier as is a membrane roof, it is only intended to shed water that is why it requires a slope. The felt underlayment is the systems last layer of defence when wind driven "horizontal" rain storms hit we call them north easters. shingles on bare wood will leak during a north easter and of course void manurfactuer warranty and violate state code. I blame a lot of bad roofing habbits on where the guy was trained, if you worked with hacks as a helper then some guys never even know what the right way is. Roofing is a skilled and honorable trade.

 

The Taillight warranty seems to be standard here.

 

A blown off shingle on a decking gap could cause some problems with no underlayments.

Seen it first hand on a 3 month old house. A few weeks later the "roofer" had it re-done. The builder and "roofer" didn't like me. The builder is also a hack.

 

You make it sound as though I don't use underlayments. No, I just don't RELY on underlayments to keep the weather out. Ice and water is a special pet peeve of mine. Too many "roofers" nowadays use it as a crutch to do sloppy work.

 

You are right about that Renegade. Some guys think I&W is like magic and substitues good flashing work and roofing practice. Sorry if I may have taken your comments out of contex but this is a topic that pops up from time to time and some wanna be roofers think felt isnt needed when it is.

 

One example: Driving down the road, see an 8/12 new const. Guys are drying it in solid ice shield w/ 30 yr laminate. I think to myself this can only be one of two things. Either the roofer isn't confident in his work or he's just upselling the owner with unnecessary work. Either way, it's a total waste and is costing the owner in two ways. Up front in the added cost of the ice shield over entire roof as well as down the road if and when that roof has to come off. Gonna have to possibly tear everything off, sheeting included because the sheeting, ice shield, and shingles are all going to be fused into one solid mass.
I just can't work like that. This is why I say ice/water is one of my biggest pet peeves.

 

I am in the middle of building a 10 x 34 porch onto an outbuilding for my parents. The pitch is only 1 3/8 /12. I just finished putting 2 layers of ice and water shield over the decking. Can I put a layer of 15lb felt between the I&W sheild and the shingles to make reroofing easier someday? I'd hate to think of ripping everything off down to the rafters someday.

 

No you can get it striped without removing the sheathing,lots of calouses though. Its common for them to spec full I&W regardless of roof pitch in coastal areas these days, you will see more of it. Although its also common for them to spec solderd flashing and chimny thru pans on Cape Cod as well.
I would do it on my own house and I have a full sheet metal shop and do better flashing work than most roofers around here. Like I said its the roofs last layer of protection. I would recomend that if you do full I&W that you make sure there is sufficient ventilation.

 

Full I&W is required for a water tight warranty from the manufacture on metal roofing. At least from Firestone it is.

 

So, Firestone has moved to metal now. And their panels are porous so they need an underlay to warranty it. Thanks for the heads up. I'll use a different manufacturer.

Here's my underlay.

It's a natural underlay and doesn't require oil products.

 

Damn tinner, that looks like some of my underlayment too. And, yes, Firestone bought unaclad a few years ago but I don't see anything about requiring ice/water for a proper warranty. Never seen any spec on my systems that specifically say anything about ice/water except for normal usage. All specs and warranties are job-specific.

sigh......... if you are depending on the underlayment to keep out the weather, you are doing something wrong.....again:whistling:whistling:whistling

 

I&W is not the only approved underlayment for Firestone, depending on pitch.

THis is the link to the UnaClad Design Guide document. It starts to address underlayments on page 7.

 

Holy Hatchet job batman,I woulnt be a bit proud of thoose pictures. Putting metal on bare wood ? sure a good mechanic can make anything tight , but its disgrasefull to take pride in doing things wrong and not to mention against code and all warranties "well maybee its tailgate warranty with some of you". Shamefull. Hey Is that caulking on your joints ? and I thought you were a good tin knocker.
Tisk Tisk

 

I must have forgot to include the link. Here it is.

 

Neat link Bull. Seem that the underlay will be the roof and the metal a UV shield.

Jim. Seams were soldered, but at the wall, the folds were double-locked and soldered shut at lowest portion. After folding the double locks against the wall, a bit of sealant was used to prevent any spay getting behind there.
We further modified that to not having any cuts at all there. Every thing is now boxed in. No solder needed, steel, tin, or copper.
As for underlay, dried pine is perfect. Felt under tin voids warranty. And if the roof is done correctly, it's totally unnecessary. I have some going back to the 1960's, which I'll admit isn't much of a 'Test of Time', and more time will be needed to watch out for any failures.

 

Maybee its regional traditions in our trade or maybee where we were trained, but we will have to agree to disagree on the underlayment subject.

 

Now that sounds like a plan! :thumbup:

 

I should have mentioned that the wood decks shown were in excess of 90 years of age and the original roofs were both tin, and had rusted through from the outside due to lack of maintanence.
In the upper picture, behind my brother, you can see the bottom of the original tin and a cleat. We fold area 'open' and roof what we can. Where we stop, we roll the original back over the new to waterproof until the next day, week, or whatever. That tin was on during the Civil War.