I want to be fair
I want to be fair to everyone including yours truly.
I haven't worked more than a day here or a day there all winter. Last week I went our and started talking to GC's. A GC I worked for 15 years ago called me and asked me to finish a job another roofer started and abandoned back in the fall. He says, I will get you everything you need- just bill me.
The renovation a complete remodel, million dollar home. It is in paint stages and the roof is leaking. So I round up a couple guys and start right in.
The weather sucks. We shoveled a walkway to the area we were were working (3 feet of snow 200 feet from the parking lot).
Snow and ice removal from roof, to get to roof.
10 square install, 2 square tear off.
12 - 3' standing seam pans along the eaves.
Tying in (2) pans against new dormer.
70 feet of open valley.
This will be done tomorrow at noon, and I will have 100 man hours involved on site. Not including original walk around or take off.
Simple right, hours x rate = Invoice.
Not simple, starting a second job for the same builder on his personal house tomorrow as soon as this is wrapped up. That is a signed contract job for a set amount all materials included. Fair market value.
I also have plans for two other residential roofs, one standing seam $40,000 and a Cedar tear off and cedar install. That's in excess of $60,000.
I can't image how this will go over when he sees my $7,500 invoice for a 10 sq labor only job.
GC advise?
I haven't worked more than a day here or a day there all winter. Last week I went our and started talking to GC's. A GC I worked for 15 years ago called me and asked me to finish a job another roofer started and abandoned back in the fall. He says, I will get you everything you need- just bill me.
The renovation a complete remodel, million dollar home. It is in paint stages and the roof is leaking. So I round up a couple guys and start right in.
The weather sucks. We shoveled a walkway to the area we were were working (3 feet of snow 200 feet from the parking lot).
Snow and ice removal from roof, to get to roof.
10 square install, 2 square tear off.
12 - 3' standing seam pans along the eaves.
Tying in (2) pans against new dormer.
70 feet of open valley.
This will be done tomorrow at noon, and I will have 100 man hours involved on site. Not including original walk around or take off.
Simple right, hours x rate = Invoice.
Not simple, starting a second job for the same builder on his personal house tomorrow as soon as this is wrapped up. That is a signed contract job for a set amount all materials included. Fair market value.
I also have plans for two other residential roofs, one standing seam $40,000 and a Cedar tear off and cedar install. That's in excess of $60,000.
I can't image how this will go over when he sees my $7,500 invoice for a 10 sq labor only job.
GC advise?
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Considering the conditions, what is the issue?
However, if you have contracts in hand worth good money, you may chose to rewrite the invoice in a way that covers your expenses and pays you but deletes profit.....if...you feel like he will keep you hooked up in return for many years.
I would expect to pay the full ride, if I said bill me the going rate.
However, if you have contracts in hand worth good money, you may chose to rewrite the invoice in a way that covers your expenses and pays you but deletes profit.....if...you feel like he will keep you hooked up in return for many years.
I would expect to pay the full ride, if I said bill me the going rate.
Considering the conditions, what is the issue?
However, if you have contracts in hand worth good money, you may chose to rewrite the invoice in a way that covers your expenses and pays you but deletes profit.....if...you feel like he will keep you hooked up in return for many years.
I would expect to pay the full ride, if I said bill me the going rate.
However, if you have contracts in hand worth good money, you may chose to rewrite the invoice in a way that covers your expenses and pays you but deletes profit.....if...you feel like he will keep you hooked up in return for many years.
I would expect to pay the full ride, if I said bill me the going rate.
I will most likely lower it some. I cannot remember being this torn over a invoice. Thank you for that I appreciate it.
Great that it looks like you have some good work to do now. I would treat the guy fair , but don't cut your self to short. Need to kind of look at the long range picture if you can. I have done thinks for builders before that really if I was only looking at the one job and money I maybe would not of done for them.
Man that's a tough one. Especially if you really need the cash. I've been there.
If my roofer did something like that, I'd damn sure want to take care of him on the payment.
Could you present him the full invoice and explain the situation and that this is what it really cost, and how you went over and above to get him out of a bind (shoveling snow, etc). Then add that it seems high to you, so you're willing to negotiate if it's higher than what he is able to pay?
That may not even be an option for you, and many may consider that sort of thing very unprofessional or something, but I've done similar things a few times with good results.
I find that being open and humble and willing to negotiate almost always brings about a good result.
Good luck whatever you decide!
If my roofer did something like that, I'd damn sure want to take care of him on the payment.
Could you present him the full invoice and explain the situation and that this is what it really cost, and how you went over and above to get him out of a bind (shoveling snow, etc). Then add that it seems high to you, so you're willing to negotiate if it's higher than what he is able to pay?
That may not even be an option for you, and many may consider that sort of thing very unprofessional or something, but I've done similar things a few times with good results.
I find that being open and humble and willing to negotiate almost always brings about a good result.
Good luck whatever you decide!
Just buy the guy lunch and be honest with him about the deal. Tell him what you have in it, and that you appreciate all the work. If he appreciates you, which I'm sure he does, he will make it right. Chances are good he is making as much or more than you off that 60k Cedar job, he won't want to screw that deal up either..
This is probably what I would do if I knew the guy well. He knows the pricing and if he accepted your contracts, he knows you are fair in your pricing as well. Give him the full price, and what you have in it. if you trust him, then negotiate in good faith and move on to the next one.
I get all squirrely on my pricing after a slow down like this Winter as well. I need the money and I need the work and don't want to lose either. It is pretty normal in the trades. Good luck with the next jobs, they sound like some nice ones. :thumbsup:
I get all squirrely on my pricing after a slow down like this Winter as well. I need the money and I need the work and don't want to lose either. It is pretty normal in the trades. Good luck with the next jobs, they sound like some nice ones. :thumbsup:
Just my opinion, but I wouldnt look at it like a 10 sq labor only roof repair. Id look at it like an abortion that needed to be dealt with. He is a GC, im sure he understands what was entailed in the job,and will justify it to his client, just make sure to bang out a quick detail of what was done.
If I was him id probably check the numbers in my head and maybe give you a call if I thought it was way high and ask what did I miss? Usually their is a good reason, like more to it than I thought. Either way I wouldn't sever a relationship and signed contracts because of one project, especially a ***** of a project like that.
If I was him id probably check the numbers in my head and maybe give you a call if I thought it was way high and ask what did I miss? Usually their is a good reason, like more to it than I thought. Either way I wouldn't sever a relationship and signed contracts because of one project, especially a ***** of a project like that.
We got in to a similar situation a few years ago. Still do work for the builder to this day. Hard to work with at first, and sometimes during the job but it pays off in the end.
The builders we do work for only a few jobs except for one since most do not put flat roofs on are million dollar plus builders. They are interested in quality work, of course it has to be at a fair price, but they are willing to pay more for a company who will be there when they need them and do great work and be done quickly.
The one started out just bid shopping, we weren't low by any means the house was large all flat roof. Two layer tear off, he questioned about our price, I explained it to him. Got the job, while the job was in progress, they wanted some flashing built for the stucco that was being replaced. Gave him a price, he signed and sent it right back needs it now! this kept going on this whole job managing this project was becoming a hassle, now the jobs done great. Two weeks later, needs collector heads and square downspouts, owner doesn't like the old ones. Boom heres a price granted it was very high since they collector heads were 35' from the ground. singed and sealed, need it done asap. Got it done quickly. Whew that jobs now complete. Move forward to a couple months later. Calls me up, need to come look at this house on the lake, complete remodel. Two sloped roofs flat roofs (one sloped the wrong way) and abortion of an entry way ect. Wants some numbers. Call the shingler, get him out there and figure our price on the flat, boom heres there numbers. Get a call a month later, wants to change some things, give him another price. Calls 2 weeks later, get me on the schedule. Got the job all completed in a good amount of time. Get a call 1 week after the job is done, owner doesn't like the front entry metal, willing to pay to replace. T&M I personally go out and do the work. 2nd best customer we work for, 1st is another home builder. Both pay on time, no hassles. the first homebuilder only hassled about a price once, and that was on cor-10 steel siding they wanted, it was expensive. The 2nd only hassled once, the initial contact with them.
Long but not so pointless post. This could very well be the best customer you have ever had. I would do like others have suggested, sit him down, explain this is why it cost so much, even giving him numbers of what it actually would have cost if you didn't do the extra work. Remember he called you to fix someone else mistake. That means they want you there. As long as you treat them fair you should be there. Like I said, upper ended home builders at least around here have a select few they use. Both to the ones I typed about only use the same people over and over. They want quality work, done quickly, at a decent price. Price should be and generally is last when your building homes like that.
Buying him a good lunch wouldn't hurt either
The builders we do work for only a few jobs except for one since most do not put flat roofs on are million dollar plus builders. They are interested in quality work, of course it has to be at a fair price, but they are willing to pay more for a company who will be there when they need them and do great work and be done quickly.
The one started out just bid shopping, we weren't low by any means the house was large all flat roof. Two layer tear off, he questioned about our price, I explained it to him. Got the job, while the job was in progress, they wanted some flashing built for the stucco that was being replaced. Gave him a price, he signed and sent it right back needs it now! this kept going on this whole job managing this project was becoming a hassle, now the jobs done great. Two weeks later, needs collector heads and square downspouts, owner doesn't like the old ones. Boom heres a price granted it was very high since they collector heads were 35' from the ground. singed and sealed, need it done asap. Got it done quickly. Whew that jobs now complete. Move forward to a couple months later. Calls me up, need to come look at this house on the lake, complete remodel. Two sloped roofs flat roofs (one sloped the wrong way) and abortion of an entry way ect. Wants some numbers. Call the shingler, get him out there and figure our price on the flat, boom heres there numbers. Get a call a month later, wants to change some things, give him another price. Calls 2 weeks later, get me on the schedule. Got the job all completed in a good amount of time. Get a call 1 week after the job is done, owner doesn't like the front entry metal, willing to pay to replace. T&M I personally go out and do the work. 2nd best customer we work for, 1st is another home builder. Both pay on time, no hassles. the first homebuilder only hassled about a price once, and that was on cor-10 steel siding they wanted, it was expensive. The 2nd only hassled once, the initial contact with them.
Long but not so pointless post. This could very well be the best customer you have ever had. I would do like others have suggested, sit him down, explain this is why it cost so much, even giving him numbers of what it actually would have cost if you didn't do the extra work. Remember he called you to fix someone else mistake. That means they want you there. As long as you treat them fair you should be there. Like I said, upper ended home builders at least around here have a select few they use. Both to the ones I typed about only use the same people over and over. They want quality work, done quickly, at a decent price. Price should be and generally is last when your building homes like that.
Buying him a good lunch wouldn't hurt either
bill him full amount, If he knows his ****z, It will be no problem.
Losing a G now might save you from losing alot more G's down the road
Losing a G now might save you from losing alot more G's down the road
I'm with GT on this. You cannot look at it by the square because it is much more involved than your normal jobs. All this other stuff had to be done just so you could get to those ten squares and do them. No shame in charging for it and he should understand that.
Nothing wrong with showing him the bill and adjusting based on his reaction if you like. Bill him, explain it to him and let him determine if you negotiate. He may not question it, then how would you feel if you automatically lowered it before even talking to him? Money unnecessarily taken out of your pocket.
Nothing wrong with showing him the bill and adjusting based on his reaction if you like. Bill him, explain it to him and let him determine if you negotiate. He may not question it, then how would you feel if you automatically lowered it before even talking to him? Money unnecessarily taken out of your pocket.
If you are inclined to pay yourself less after having the winter off before even submitting the bill, you might want to wait until after you submit the bill. If you drop your pants before you submit it, what will you do when he wants a discount then?...
You'll get spanked twice... both of your own doing...
If you did the work, in the conditions, lay it out in the invoice... because whatever you amend your pricing to because you "think" it's high, he will extrapolate out to the other jobs (especially his own house)...
Submit it as is first... if he balks, explain your reasoning and if he still balks ask him "how little he wants you to make"...
NEVER short-changed yourself upfront... especially if it is justified...
You'll get spanked twice... both of your own doing...
If you did the work, in the conditions, lay it out in the invoice... because whatever you amend your pricing to because you "think" it's high, he will extrapolate out to the other jobs (especially his own house)...
Submit it as is first... if he balks, explain your reasoning and if he still balks ask him "how little he wants you to make"...
NEVER short-changed yourself upfront... especially if it is justified...
Put yourself in his shoes,...how much would you expect to pay?
Bill him with a smile and hold your head high. With the scenario you described, I would have billed in additional combat pay given the complexity and nature of the work.
Bill him with a smile and hold your head high. With the scenario you described, I would have billed in additional combat pay given the complexity and nature of the work.
It started like this:
GC,
I am really unsure what I should charge you for this particular job. The weather has been less than favorable or the access to 1/3 of the job. I have just over 100 man hours invested. Typically, I price our work at $65 per hour on ones story $75 for two and $85 for three.
Regardless you providing more jobs or not, I don't feel right sending you a $6,500 bill for this particular job and I trust you as a fair man so I must ask, what do you think is a fair amount?
His Response,
I greatly appreciate your moving into a job that another contractor had started. It has been on my mind for quite a while and I can now move forward with finishing the exterior. I'm interested to have the opportunity to see how you organize your work and the finished product. $6,500 does sound a bit out of line and was probably a function of the weather, access, and finishing details left behind by others. Go ahead and invoice us for the $6,500. The $65/hr is steep but you did bail me out. I'm hopeful I can past the cost thru to the owner.
I read between the lines. And sent this one right over:
Him,
I will have a invoice at the office today, it will be for $5,000 even. I hope you find this more inline and fair. As a return favor can you please have that check available today by 3?
And he did.
GC,
I am really unsure what I should charge you for this particular job. The weather has been less than favorable or the access to 1/3 of the job. I have just over 100 man hours invested. Typically, I price our work at $65 per hour on ones story $75 for two and $85 for three.
Regardless you providing more jobs or not, I don't feel right sending you a $6,500 bill for this particular job and I trust you as a fair man so I must ask, what do you think is a fair amount?
His Response,
I greatly appreciate your moving into a job that another contractor had started. It has been on my mind for quite a while and I can now move forward with finishing the exterior. I'm interested to have the opportunity to see how you organize your work and the finished product. $6,500 does sound a bit out of line and was probably a function of the weather, access, and finishing details left behind by others. Go ahead and invoice us for the $6,500. The $65/hr is steep but you did bail me out. I'm hopeful I can past the cost thru to the owner.
I read between the lines. And sent this one right over:
Him,
I will have a invoice at the office today, it will be for $5,000 even. I hope you find this more inline and fair. As a return favor can you please have that check available today by 3?
And he did.
And we all live happily ever after. :thumbsup:
Perfect!
Except I'd have invoiced for $6k even. Lol
Except I'd have invoiced for $6k even. Lol
Roofcheck said:
Or don't get into it for $60k before you get paid.
Payment for material when delivered. Down payment for labor when you start working. Weekly progress draws.
That is, unless you got 60k laying around you can back it with in case you don't get paid.
Payment for material when delivered. Down payment for labor when you start working. Weekly progress draws.
That is, unless you got 60k laying around you can back it with in case you don't get paid.
Metro M & L said:
You did exactly what I would have done. The added work with the two big jobs more than makes up for the $1500 hit and you explained it, so he appreciates it. Seems like everyone walks away happy and like they didn't get ripped off and didn't rip anyone off, which is the best case scenario. :thumbsup:
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
