" we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of bs..

BS??? I pay my guys $75 to R/R and awning. I don't expect them to do it for free.

 

32 a job is not realistic.. my beef is one job may be some nails, another may be changing a sill.. or " we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of bs..
so how would you guys like your bosses to say they are deducting 20 bucks because you only used 3/4 of a roll of a aluminum and deducted 30 bucks because there is one piece of siding left over.. would you like that? no you wouldnt.

Was the question of his status ever answered? Either he is an employee or a sub, if he is an employee then pay him per hour and provide the material he needs. If he's a sub then he either takes care of everything and bills for it or he's providing labor only and you need to provide all material. If he's not being clear about who is responsible for what then he is also at fault. That needs to be cleared up before anything else.

As far as where the extra material came from, if it was left over from a job he did for you or an unrelated job is irrelevant. It is inventory and is one of his business expenses, he has it, has been hauling it around, it was paid for with money that otherwise been profit on the job it came from. You guys need to figure out the specifics of your relationship, agree on something, and don't make exceptions or deviate from it and these problems would not exist

 

It sounds to me like the guy is doing a great job. I would hate to be called over every little problem. A guy who takes the initiative to solve the problem without bothering me is a plus.

If the few dollars every job is that big a deal to you then tell the guy to kick rocks. Just add 1 more competitor who sounds like he has his s*it together.

BTW, I charge my customers any extra material and labor above and beyond the SOW. They understand that I dont work for free. Never had a problem.

 

pay him or find someone else.
next.

 

I had a boss like this once. The one thing I learned from him was how not to be a boss

 

I agree 100%. I have a sub like that right now...The guy will hold up a 30k job for 4 days then do it make 5k and then send another bill fro rehanging a pair of shutters and charge me $11 bucks.. Annoys the **** out of me

 

I agree 100%. I have a sub like that right now...The guy will hold up a 30k job for 4 days then do it make 5k and then send another bill for rehanging a pair of shutters and charge me $11 bucks.. Annoys the **** out of me

I don't know why he's holding up a a $30K job for 4 days.... that's certainly not right. But his time to hang the shutters isn't worth the $11 to you? Well, then take an hours worth of drive time, 30 minutes of hanging shutters time - out of your day next time and hang them yourself. That'll sure teach 'em to not back charge you.

To me, it would be worth the $11 to know it's done and you don't have to worry about it. Besides, $11 to hang a pair of shutters is cheap.

But, I understand that maybe my point of view is different. I don't mean to say you're wrong, I just don't see where it's a big deal personally.

 

My wife is always picking up pennies on the ground. I laugh at her ans she just says "pennies make dollars". Well nickels and dimes make dollars faster. Most all of the posters here are not employees. even those of us with a "Boss":laughing: We got a pretty good idea of how things work. Pay the guy and be glad he's not charging a trip to the lumber yard and back plus 30% mark up on materials.

 

If the guy goes and grabs a couple nails to bang some T-111 down before siding, I wouldn't expect him to charge and I wouldn't either. If I had to replace a sheet or two and repair a rotted sill or stud I might. If I was the salesman I would expect to pay for it. It would already be in my quote.

Those are things an experienced salesman/installer can usually figure on ahead of time. I know where the trouble on a shake house usually is and figure on it. I know where the trouble on a roof might be and put a little extra in. Not hard stuff. Just put that little bit in and make the guy happy. If he doesn't need it, you keep it.

I've been that installer. I always hated it when I would be asked to do or fix something because the salesman didn't put it in the bid. I had an exceptional relationship with the salesmen and the owner, but it still bugged me. Sure, installing 50 feet of flashing doesn't take long, but it cuts into the time I would be making money slapping up vinyl. Especially when there was no way to miss it, but it got missed.

On the other hand, If he explained to me he totally blew a job, or came to me and asked if we could help the HO together, I would be more than willing to give on my end.

It always amazes me when someone says that a few minutes here, or an hour there, or a few dollars over there shouldn't matter, as long I don't have to give it away. If it shouldn't matter to him, why should it matter to you? Is your pocket any better than his for keeping the money?

If it really bugs you, go and find another guy who will just bypass all those problems and allow you to deal with it when the HO calls and complains after the job is done.. How much will that save you.

 

no one answered this: if you were an installer, how would you feel if there were 2 pieces of siding left over on a 20 sq job so i refused to pay for a compete square. i payed for 19 1/2 sq ? or if you used 8 3/4 roll of aluminum and i only payed for 8 3/4 rather than 9 which i always do...you would feel as if you are being nickeled and dimed. so if you guys add up 1/4 roll of aluminum here, 2 pieces of siding there, thats adds up at the end of the year as well doesnt it? that could be more money in my pocket but i dont operate that way. how come its ok for the installer to charge for every small thing but i dont? look at it from that perspective.

 

You're sounding like a cry baby, penny pinching home owner. If you're a GC, you already know materials aren't sold in increments. Left overs are a PITA to haul away, store and bring to the next job, suppliers sell by the square, contractors sell by the square, homeowners and property owners buy by the square. Over estimating and 10% waste goes with the job. Would you like the leftovers placed on your lawn until the next job? :laughing:

 

If I was a sub and you told me I couldn't mark up a change order I'd tell you to get

I bet you mark up your change orders.

As far as the discount, not happening either. I bid this scope, anything beyond that is extra. Simple as that.

Let me say it a different way because marking up change orders is 100% fine. If you choose to work with us and contract to replace a roof and while you are doing the re-roof you realize that you need an additional vent over and above what you quoted, you are empowered to go get it and bill us for it. Given that it should have Ben in your SOW we want you to do the right thing but we do not want to have to pay O/P on it. We have these policies for over 10 years and none of our subs have any issues with it. As a matter of fact I know that a few of my subs use a similar method when they sub out work. It makes the quotes better and more reliable. Nails, screws a roof vent, step flashing, caulk, glue, or other items should be included in the quote and if you short we will always pay for the job to be done right. If you are doing that roof for us and find that there is a 2x2 section of rot we expect you to replace the area. If you find that 3 sheets have gone bad we expect you to fix that as well, but we expect you to inform us, fill out a request for change order, document the issue and provide us a quote for the additional work. This can take all of 5 minutes to get an approval from us to proceed. In this case we would expect and assume markup. All of our contracts to clients state that we have the right to complete work related to the SOW if found during demo within 10% of our contract price without prior approval. This allows us to keep moving on work without constraint calls to clients.

Our employees are never allowed to keep personal materials on the trucks. They all have access to supply houses and we always have young new employees who can run out to re-supply during the day. They also do not use personal tools other then there basic gear.

 

Still have no idea if this guy is a sub or an employee.

Wonder why the OP won't say.

 

I think that the installer is trying to send you a message.

 

i am a very straight up guy and very generous as well and probably why my 2 main install teams have been with me for almost 8 years, i am not cheap and dont expect my workers to be so. we are supposed to be a team and thats my feeling. i am actually talking to him about this tonight. he wants to keep penny pinching, he can do it with someone else,not me. i just dont work that way.

 

WW.... I'm sure you are, but I think you've got your panties in a bunch over nothing. In my opinion, I think you're looking at this as a forrest and trees thing. All you're loking at are each individual tree and not seeing the forrest at all.

If the guy was telling you that you're a square of material short, or.... if you're like most of us and the job specs out at 24.33 squares and you send out 26 square to keep it at full boxes (just to be sure there is enough and to leave a piece or two for the homeowner), knowing full well you'll likely have a square to return.... but get a bill from the installer for the full 26 squares, what would you think? First time, you made a mistake. Second and third times? You'd begin to wonder.

Now an honest installer will only charge you for what he puts on and will leave every single piece of what he doesn't. But, if you start making him supply your jobs with his materials AND labor out of his own pocket, That 24.33 square job will turn in to 26 REALLY quick. That extra material will disappear or end up as "waste."

Now, you've got a distrustful situation that will lead you no where. Just pay the guy for his overages that he takes out of his own pocket so it doesn't come to that.

Why is that so hard to do?

 

Follow up.... on coil work, we pay by the foot or the task ie; fascia board, frieze board, single window wrap, garage door wrap etc., not the roll (why would you pay by the roll?) and any left over coil is mine.

 

complete window and door,
i hear you, you make some very good points. i appreciate the feedback my friend.
welterweight

 

Thank you.... I don't mean to be "hard" on you. But I've been in those situations where the installers, the sales guys and the company all point fingers at each other and scream they are getting $crewed. No one trusts anyone. That's just not a fun situation to be in.

When I started my company, my partner and I are of the belief and made the decision that you pay your installers and don't question them when they say they had to do something extra. In fact, like I said earlier.... mine have marching orders to do whatever is necessary to make the install as good as it can possibly be. Even if something is not covered on the work order. They do those "extra" things (not Homeowner requested extras of course), with confidence that they will get paid for the extra work.

What that does, is keep the job flowing smoothly and the HO confidence high. Plus, it makes you look good in the customer's eyes as well. The installers don't have to call and "get permission" to do something that turns out is necessary for a good install.... which puts the installer in a questionable light as if you don't "trust" him to do what's necessary.

It's a perception thing I guess.

Or even worse, on the flip side.... you miss something in the scope of the project, the installer knows he's not getting paid for an extra (or will have to fight for his money if he does).... so he chooses not to do anything.

Now, you've got a call back three or four years down the road because the rotted sill that didn't get replaced and got covered with coil and continued to rot until the coil finally falls off. What do you tell the HO now? Oops, we should have replaced that three years ago. So sorry. You replace it at no charge (not even considering the half a day of payroll, gasoline to go pick up a brand new roll of coil, the cost of the coil and caulk etc) and you fix it.

Now you've spent five or six times what you would have paid the guy originally and you've got coil that doesn't match exactly (because of fade) and a HO left wondering "how many more sills/brickmold are rotted under the coil stock that they missed the first time?"

All of that over an extra $20 up front to replace a rotted sill. See my point? Like someone already said.... the guy is doing you a FAVOR by taking care of these things on his own. You should not only pay him for it.... but THANK him as well.

 

Can I chime in?

I read in a post where you say you are a good business man. Okay. Let us assume this is true because we have no reason not to doubt you.

You have two real simple choices:
1 - pay the change orders & be grateful he isn't spending the time to call you, to interrupt what you are doing in your busy day so you can drop everything and bring one sheet of plywood for him to fix something

and

2 - Fire him and bring on a new sub.

This is a lot of stress over a few dollars a job. It is not HIS fault that YOU don't then charge the homeowner after he charges you.

My guys are all hourly but will on occasion need something that just doesn't make sense to run to our supplier. They go and buy it, give me the receipt and they get a reimbursement check along with their regular paycheck.

It truly isn't that hard. If you measure a roof at 30 sq and have three square left over, do you credit the homeowners bill?

 

I totally agree with Bam.
Sounds like a lot of this has to do with the jobs not being supplied correctly in the first place.

 

Good point. At first I measured really tight because to return items is a waste of time. Then I realized that getting a phone call right before an appointment of something that is needed right away is an even bigger waste of time and money.

Now due to the volume I purchase, my supplier will pick up and return any extras at no charge whatsoever. It isn't uncommon for me to have a few square left over and rolls of felt/iw/tyvek or whatever.

I always explain to the HO that I order WAY to much of everything because it costs me too much time & money to be short items.

Moral of the story - Order heavy material wise but you STILL have to pay the man for the labor of repairing something that needed to be done.

 

Sounds like he is not charging enough if you are missing things like that . Why should he pay for your mistakes and what you missed on the bid.

 

I am on the side of the people who think $25 is cheap and it would cost you much more than that to deal with the improperly stocked jobs. You should give him $50 next time and thank him for giving a chit because most guys would just call you and make it your problem.

 

Sounds like someone one the team is not doing his part.

 

This whole conversation is pretty much meaningless until we find out if the "worker" is an employee, or a sub-contractor.

If it's a sub, then what is specified in the contract?

 

Also the "team" reference is bull**** unless you share the same risk for the same reward. I doubt this is your partner so there is no team. there is a GC and a sub or an employee. Way different than a team.

 

Will you please just tell us if he is an employee or a sub?? Please? The suspense is killing me......:whistling

 

I dont sub much out, but when I do, I make sure that all the material is there. If I were to sub out a roof, there would be plenty of ridge vent, nails, paper, shingles, etc.

If i figure on needing 2 boxes of nails, I get three! and that goes for all other materials too. I hate running for just a couple things. After the job is done either keep it for stock or return it!

 

When you short the job no matieral you arr costing him money.