If you hired me for siding, I would expect to do siding. Taking the time to do a plywood or window sill repair takes my time away from siding. I would bill you for it. It's not so much nickel and dime as it is business on a smaller scale.


Good Luck
Dave

 

I am not following on many different levels....

Is he a sub contractor or employee? Sounds like if he is an employee he does piece work. Just curious on this part really.

I guess it just depends on how you look at it. It sounds to me like he just wants to be paid for what he put puts in. Can't really blame him there.

It's always more annoying when it's happening to you. Lol. A lot of times it is the little things and the context that drive people crazy. I deal with some people that just annoy the chit out of me,
Over little things like that and many other things.

 

I am not following on many different levels....

It's always more annoying when it's happening to you. Lol. A lot of times it is the little things and the context that drive people crazy. I deal with some people that just annoy the chit out of me,
Over little things like that and many other things.

I cannot agree more. One guy I would gladly be agreeing to all the nickle and diming, another, just based on the way he approached me would drive me crazy. Hate to admit it, but sometimes that's just how it is!

But on the other end, it adds up when you start putting in your own dime. Seems little at first, but the guy probably added it up and realized it was worth the effort asking...

 

Just wondering...Do the other guys on your crew do free work for you with their own materials? Even if they are hourly, you have to pay for the materials they use.

 

if my guys run short on lets say nails, and they have extra in their truck, they use it and never mention it. this guy charges for it.
if it 2 boxes of nails or something, i can understand but the constant nickel and diming. trust me, he is making alot of money with me.
if a customer needs one or 2 sheets of plywood replaced, i dont even mention it to them.i am already making nice money off the job, why annoy them. if the customer is a complete prick then they get charged..an no, i am not a prick to any of my subs. this way everyones happy and i get recommendations. now, if there is some more work that needs to be done like 5 or 6 sheets of plywood i have that in my contract and i do mention it..i feel as a businessman, you need to be flexible and not so rigid. this guy gets on my nerves with nickel and diming me.
he takes time to change some window trim? gee, 15 minutes when he is making a few grand a week with me..give me a break.

 

i feel as a businessman, you need to be flexible and not so rigid.

Oversimplified of course, but you feel it's good business to give materials away for free? :no:

While you may think you're paying him well, from his POV you're paying him what he's worth and those materials come right out of his bottom line. Though I give small stuff away like that all of the time, I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't. Different strokes and all that.

 

I would say if he is doing more then he was contacted for would be billable. The conversation I would have would with him would be contract based. I would either offer him the option of contracting and include a rider that unless the additional time and materials amounts to x% it should be included in the price. Or you can charge me T&M and I will pay it but his contract price should reflect this change and I should be given a discount on every job. Also I would not allow him to mark up any of the extras. I would avoid telling him you are annoyed and keep the personal feelings out of it. Our policy with subs is as follows........ Your contract price has an upper limit of 2.5% the total contract price. On a $10,000 contact the sub has to exceed $250.00 in additional non marked up cost before we will approve a change order. Most of our subs work well with this policy because we keep them working and we don't nickel and dime them on their contracts to us. We allow everyone to mark up work a fair amount and treat everyone well. If he does good work and is reliable then do what you can to work with him

 

If I was a sub and you told me I couldn't mark up a change order I'd tell you to get


I bet you mark up your change orders.

As far as the discount, not happening either. I bid this scope, anything beyond that is extra. Simple as that.

 

As a business you should be charging customers when you have to replace things not originally figured in the estimate.

Does a mechanic go to change your brakes and throw in new tie rods for free just because you give him a lot of work?

I honestly dont think hes nickel and dime'ing you. Hes running a business, and the idea of running a business is not to do work for free.

 

The short answer is Yes you are wrong. From your post he is part of your "crew". I take that to mean hourly. So you want him supply your job will 1 roll of ridge vent, 1 box of nails, 1 sheet of plywood, 1 stick of brickmold, and a "small amount" of felt paper. For free. I'm not sure what a roll of vent costs so I'll say 50.00, box of nails 25.00, sheet of plywood 15.00, trim 10.00. I'd say it's not nickels and dimes anymore..That's 100 bucks. Maybe you make so much off of all the free materials you seem to get that 100.00 is nothing to you. To me 100.00 is alot more than nickels and dimes.

 

Well there is the option of looking at it from a different perspective. When he runs into a scenario where he is short on materials, even as simple as nials, he could just stop the job and call you, then wait for them to show or worse pull of the job and get involved in another delaying yours even further. So from that view he is actually saving YOU money. By looking at it that way maybe the charges won't be so irritating or expensive to you.

 

I totally agree with everything said here. I NEVER quible with my guys (subs) over "nickle and dime" stuff. They know up front if they run into ANY issues that need to be done, that aren't covered in the scope of the work order, they are under strict instructions to go ahead and get them done using whatever is necessary to do the install correctly (their own stuff, run and get something etc.), and we will settle up later. I have never failed to pay them for ANY extras they run across. There is a trust built up with them knowing they will always be paid accordingly for the work they do for us.

That trust also allows me to occasionally ask them for "a little help" on a job that got sold a little short. Because I'm not constantly "nickle and diming" them to death on their other jobs, they always accommodate me. Makes for a great working relationship. I also know that because my guys are so good, they don't need me as much as I need them. They can get work anywhere. If your guy is that good, so could he.

So, IMHO.... pay the guy, for the materials he provides out of his own pocket to complete your jobs. If you continue to nickle and dime him and he's a great installer, you will quickly find you no longer have that worry. He'll be working for someone else.

Just my $0.02, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV and all that.

 

pay him.

 

not to be rude- but the only nickle and diming I see in this thread is by the original poster- I have a hard time even believing it's a real post

Stephen

 

What does your contract say? :shifty:

 

i always pay. never ever do i refrain from that. i just get pissed off when i am being nickeled and dimed. i have great relationships with all my workers and subs. i consider myself as being very successful and have a very good rep amongst workers.
as a successful businessman, if i am making a nice chunk of change off a siding job and a few small issues arise that may consume an hours worth of extra work, im not going to say anything..i might bring it up after final payment is submitted so the customer knows i took care of them..thats called good/ smart business. at the same time, my subs are making good money as well..to nickel and dime me for SMALL things is just stupid .. i know other owners of companies get pissed as well. most of my guys do some extra tasks and as i said, never even mention it because it wasnt very time consuming and they know they are earning nicely with me. .if it is time consuming then of course they should be paid and they always are. my guys and me should be working as a TEAM .
lets say a sub is making 3500 off a siding job then when i go and pay him, he says i owe him and extra 32 bucks for some nails.. that **** pisses me off especially when i am giving him so much work.. lets say he gives me a reciept for 120 bucks for various material, i totally understand.. its the small **** that bothers me.
lets change things around, you're a customer and you are charged 25 grand for some sort of home improvement and i give you a reciept for 30 bucks for something.. you are going to be pissed and rightly so. as a businessman, i would never do that. some contractors do and they seem to always be the ones that complain how slow things are and how tough it is out there.. no, its because they arent good businessmen. thats my thoughts..sorry if some dont agree but again, i am talking about small amounts here. all my other guys never ever mention small stuff, its this one guy.

 

i always pay. never ever do i refrain from that. i just get pissed of when i am being nickeled and dimed. i have great relationships with all my workers and subs. i consider myself as being very successful and have a very good rep amongst workers.
as a successful businessman, if i am making a nice chunk of change off a siding job and a few small issues arise that may consume an hours worth of extra work, im not going to say anything..i might bring it up after final payment is submitted so the customer knows i took care of them..thats called good/ smart business. at the same time, my subs are making good money as well..to nickel and dime me for SMALL things is just stupid .. i know other owners of companies get pissed as well. most of my guys do some extra tasks and as i said, never even mention it because it wasnt very time consuming..if it is, of. ourse they should be paid.
lets say a sub is making 3500 off a siding job then when i go and pay him, he says i owe him and extra 32 bucks for some nails.. that **** pisses me off especially when i am giving him so much work.. lets say he gives me a reciept for 120 bucks for various material, i totally understand.. its the small **** that bothers me.
lets change things around, you're a customer and you are charges 25 grand for some sort of home improvement Nd i give you a reciept for 30 bucks for something.. you are going to be pissed and rightly so. as a businessman, i would never do that. some contractors do and they and they seem to always be the ones that complain how slow things are and how tough it is out there.. no, its because they arent good businessmen. thats my thoughts..sorry if some dont agree but again, i am talking about small amounts here. all my other guys never ever mention small stuff, its this one guy.

Well, you obviously went on a rant here because paragraphs, punctuation and everything else went right out the window. So, you obviously feel very strongly about your position and at least seem to be, a little peeved that not a single responder agrees with you. But, I'll try one more time to try and get you to understand....

It doesn't matter if it's $20 or $120. An expense was incurred by your installer to finish your job that you have said you are making good money on. It doesn't matter WHAT the installer is making or has already made on the project. That's already been agreed to and not relevant in this equation.

Your installer is fulfilling his part of the equation by installing the job to your specifications at the mutually agreed to pricing structure. No where in your sub contractor agreement (you DO have one with him I assume) does it say "Sub Contractor is responsible to furnish materials at his own expense should they be needed and not supplied by the General Contractor. So, he is just being a good businessman and accounting for all of his expenses.

Now, as I see it.... you have three options.

1. Tell him to call you each time he is short of material and you agree to drop everything and get it to him PDQ.
2. Bump his per square price on shingles and siding an agreed upon amount - with the stipulation that he will need to provide miscellaneous materials once in a while.
3. 3. Just get over yourself and pay the man when he uses his own materials and supplies to finish one of your projects.

Sorry to be so abrupt, I don't mean to offend. But IMHO, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. The guy has out of pocket expenses on your job. It's not nickles and dimes. It's an expense incurred as part of the job PERIOD. Just pay him and be thankful he's there for you when you need him. Great subs are hard to find.

There are a lot bigger things to focus your efforts on.

Again.... just my $0.02, FWIW, IMHO, YMMV and all that.

 

I don't get it. Its 32$ ... if he didn't figure on using it, he didn't figure on using it. 32$ over a year adds up...

I will say that would be irritating, and I think its just getting under your skin. Lol.

 

Why not get him to supply all materials in the first place then bill you for everything?

 

Where did he get those nails, or extra little bit of tarpaper? If it was left over from the last job, I'd be pissed to if I was paying for it twice. Does he ever give you a thirty dollar credit for what he didn't have to use? Always depends on who's nickel it is.

 

In business, nobody does anything for free.
Pay up and loose the animosity.

 

He is taking care of things as they come up.....and then charging for it. Sounds like a keeper to me.

 

Will there be another thread started soon?

Would it sound like; "Jeez, my boss is a real cheapskate. He hired me to hang some siding but I found out that some plywood needed to be replaced before I could finish and there was a rotted window sill to repair. I fixed them and gave him a bill for materials and labor and he flipped out about the extra costs.

Seems like he wants me to work for free. I'll have to ask him which one of my kids will get smaller helpings at dinner to help me be able to afford to help him save money enough so he can tell the customer no charge."

Good Luck
Dave

 

i dont mind going to the van and getting things out to use like screws , nails any little bits like that , i also dont mind doing a little extra on a job but there is limits and it adds up imagine them little bits cost him 40 dollars every job and then add time , so while i under stand what your saying , i would imagine there is something different to why you have these feelings towards him

 

A detailed scope of work and a purchase order for that work, nothing more and nothing less until a change order is agreed upon.
If you're supplying materials you can't expect him to pay for what you missed.
How would you feel if he was supplying materials and asked you to pay for the ridge vent he forgot?

 

wrong David.. if he goes to the supplier to pick up extra i get a receipt, thats different even if its 20 bucks.. i am talking about doing a bit extra without leaving the site when he has some extra nails laying around in the van..if its 2 boxes of nails that the supplier forgot to send, then of course he gets paid..however, if he changes 2 pieces of plywood and its at the job site, give me a break or if he replaces one window sill. as i said, thats nickel and diming.. if the house is 25 square and there is 2 pieces of siding left over he gets paid for 25 sq, im not going to deduct the 2 pieces of siding.. that would be nickel and diming on my part and thats not how i operate so why should he.. i think i am going to do that next week and see how he likes it,nthen he and i can talk after he gains some perspective.

 

Say $32 once a week in extra materials, 32x 50 that's 1600$ he's giving you over a year. In other words are you asking him to do 1 or 2 jobs for free? Unless he's agreed to do any and everything involved for a set price he is in no way wrong to ask for this money. I don't care how much work someone is giving me, I'm not going to pay to work for someone. Nothing is unfair or wrong about him wanting to be paid, and if he is doing small jobs, $500- $2k range is what I gather from the op, that's not even nickel and dime, its a substantial amount.

 

32 a job is not realistic.. my beef is one job may be some nails, another may be changing a sill.. or " we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of bs..
so how would you guys like your bosses to say they are deducting 20 bucks because you only used 3/4 of a roll of a aluminum and deducted 30 bucks because there is one piece of siding left over.. would you like that? no you wouldnt.

 

I don't have a boss....:no:

 

I understand what you are saying, but where do you split the hairs between a "couple" of nails and a couple of boxes of nails? Is it a single coil, two coils, a half box? If he uses a piece of two-by he has in his trailer to replace a rotted sill you missed. Is his time to measure, cut and install the thing not worth $20 to you? What kind of message are you really sending to him when you question these charges? That his stuff and time isn't worth as much as yours?

I dunno.... I think you are playing with fire here.