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Try Trillions and 40% of which is borrowed. The plumber:whistling is right, most will have to wait and see how this shakes out. Sucks, but it is what it is for now.:sad:
And it's actually worse than that...

If 40% of every dollar you are spending is borrowed, you are borrowing 66-2/3% of what you are contributing from your own funds.

If you increase the % you borrow, the ratio goes up exponentially because of the debt service requirements to the point where it becomes mathmatically impossible to service the debt. At that point, you can no longer borrow or you have to find someone else (and they'd have to be really stupid) from whom to borrow. Then what happens?

Mike Tyson is broke. Whitney Houston died broke. Did they have a revenue problem or a spending problem?
 

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It's only 2074 pages.........:rolleyes:


B,
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html

looks like 955 pages and if you submitted an essay with margins like these you'd get laughed out of class so it's probably more like 400 actual pages. :laughing:

big law, no doubt, and a lot people on here are doing their best to obfuscate it at every turn. i can't say that i love the law, i think it's a half measure in a lot of ways, but it's not the big bad wolf that a lot of people are making it out to be.
 

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http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html

looks like 955 pages and if you submitted an essay with margins like these you'd get laughed out of class so it's probably more like 400 actual pages. :laughing:

big law, no doubt, and a lot people on here are doing their best to obfuscate it at every turn. i can't say that i love the law, i think it's a half measure in a lot of ways, but it's not the big bad wolf that a lot of people are making it out to be.
What obfuscations are you referring to? It's one thing to say that, it's another to actually back up what you say...

If you look at the "Certified Full Text Versions" below on the page you linked, you'll see it is actually 2409 pages... or you can just use the link they provided... http://www.healthcare.gov/law/resources/authorities/patient-protection.pdf

But it really doesn't matter as much as the size as to the content...
 

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Did anyone read the American Jobs Act? I read every word.

I understand that the Affordable Care Act is similar in concept.

That is, there's really nothing in it that has much to do with health care. There's just page after page of bureaucracy creation and descriptions of penalties for doing or not doing something. Nancy Pelosi claimed that the ACA would create 400,000 additional government jobs. Not one of these positions would be actual service providers.
 

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I have been buying my own insurance for years.
Now the free loaders who use the emergency room, never pay, and pass the cost on to us who do, will have to buy their own insurance also.
Yippee.
No, you'll still be paying for it. Poor are exempt.
 

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Did anyone read the American Jobs Act? I read every word.

I understand that the Affordable Care Act is similar in concept.
I read about 1000 pages of both. They're both loaded with all kinds of stuff you wouldn't expect based on how they were presented to the public. Both of them ballooned from 600-700 pages (which I read fully) to more than 2000 ( read 1000+ pages each time) just before they went up for votes. I guarantee congress didn't know what they were voting on when they voted.
 

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http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html

looks like 955 pages and if you submitted an essay with margins like these you'd get laughed out of class so it's probably more like 400 actual pages. :laughing:
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/resources/authorities/patient-protection.pdf

2409 pages

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/resources/authorities/reconciliation-law.pdf

55 pages

Total 2464 pages. Interesting reading about, for instance, eliminating the cap on number of people in the National Health Service Corps, eliminating congressional approval of some appointments, exempting it from Civil Service rules, reserves to be called up in the case of emergency, etc, etc.

At least this one is somewhat related to health care, but I doubt it represents a step toward "affordable" health care.
 

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I could be wrong on my thoughts on this . Even though they can't not insure you for pre-existing conditions , they can charge you what they want right?
No.

‘‘SEC. 2701. FAIR HEALTH INSURANCE PREMIUMS.
‘‘(a) PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATORY PREMIUM RATES.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—With respect to the premium
rate charged by a health insurance issuer for health

HR 3590 EAS/PP
insurance coverage offered in the individual or small group market—
‘‘(A) such rate shall vary with respect to the particular plan or coverage involved only by—
‘‘(i) whether such plan or coverage covers an individual or family;
‘‘(ii) rating area, as established in accordance with paragraph (2);
‘‘(iii) age, except that such rate shall not vary by more than 3 to 1 for adults (consistent with section 2707(c)); and
‘‘(iv) tobacco use, except that such rate shall not vary by more than 1.5 to 1; and
‘‘(B) such rate shall not vary with respect to the particular plan or coverage involved by any other factor not described in subparagraph (A).
 

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2,700 pages ?!!?? WOW!

That's worse that an insurance policy with a poorly worded clause hidden in Section 4, Sub-Section H, Paragraph 3, Clause (vii).
"The standards shall ensure that the summary of benefits and coverage is presented in a uniform format that does not 4 exceed pages in length and does not include print smaller than 12-point font."

Do as I say, not as I do.
 

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KAP said:
Competition is an "illusion"? Competition directly affects how a company makes money as it relates to service companies/commodities. The less competition, the less focus on bringing costs down...

If not, how do explain that you can buy a laptop today for a fraction of what it cost just to buy some RAM 20 years ago? Or how phone service is cheaper NOW than it was 20 years ago? But you'll notice that electric companies, that is not the case... service company/commodity, but they are a protected government monopoly, hence the prices do not go down...

The same insurance companies that sell health insurance ALSO sell Life, Auto, Disability, etc... and those prices are not only cheaper, but you get more! The difference is they have to COMPETE for those dollars...
It's not even remotely on the planet of being in the ballpark the same.

When you build a laptop you have fixed costs and sell it at a profit per unit. Health care doesn't even resemble anything like that.

As far as auto, life and home insurance that is also not even close to the same thing. Results are based on statistics and risk management. Average age is say 73, you buy a policy at age 30 and the math is reasonably simple to predict.

Car accidents as well, that's a nobrainer.

Health insurance is different. The business model is seriously flawed. An insurance company is faced with the possibility of having a customer needing $3,000,000 in payouts for cancer on one person or possibly paying out a fraction.

Then, the money they take in for premiums is gambled on Wall Street which hasn't been doing well for some time now. If the gamble is wrong rates go up. If cancer and diabetes are growing it has to come out of premiums right? This is nothing like selling a laptop which is why the theory of competition with healthcare has never gained traction. It's a myth. Even if it did work how much would it save? Nobody knows.

Think about it. If I pay in $1,600 a month for a premium and I get cancer and the bills are $30,000 a month what happens? Not only is the $1,600 a month not enough to cover it but the money is sitting in stocks that are underperforming. Nothing about this is good.

Cancer, diabetes, and obesity are growing fast. The cost to treat this is growing fast.

Given that information how should premiums be based? Fine, open up the competition but that doesn't reduce COSTS it just makes potential for profit smaller. The costs alone are unaffordable without calculating profits.

My wife spent 2 days in a hospital. The frickn bill was $34,000. Can you honestly tell me that the free market system will make that affordable? That's a dog that won't hunt.
 

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Another way to look at it is this. Let's use my wife again as an example.

Say we are paying out $1,600 and we do as you suggest and the free market system takes over. How much do we save by having insurance companies compete? Nobody knows so let's pretend it's a whopping 30% savings in premiums.

Ok, now, instead of $1,600 a month we are paying out $1,120 or $480 a month less.

I'll forget the fact that wages have not been going up because that's a different discussion and really, $1,120 is still unaffordable.

Regardless, the $30,000 + in hospital bills for my wife doesn't change, the company has to pay it out. Suddenly the $480 they deducted make life pretty hard at the insurance company. In fact, it kills them.

So then what? They either drop is from insurance or raise rates so frickn high we can't pay it. Dropping us is the reality.

So where is the free market now? Would any of them compete for my wife to want to carry her? Hardly. None of them would touch her. So much for the free market system theory.

You see, the business costs don't come from insurance, it comes in the form of hospital visits and cost to treat. The free market theory among insurers is complete bunk.

Flood the country with doctors I say, and build hospitals and let them compete to drive down costs.

It's cheaper to have the government pay for medical school than it would be for national health care.
 

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txgencon said:
In one block on Davis Street west of Westmoreland in Dallas, no less that six businesses advertise 24 hour vehicle insurance.
Lived in Dallas area my whole life and have never noticed these places. :laughing:
 

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What obfuscations are you referring to? It's one thing to say that, it's another to actually back up what you say...

If you look at the "Certified Full Text Versions" below on the page you linked, you'll see it is actually 2409 pages... or you can just use the link they provided... http://www.healthcare.gov/law/resources/authorities/patient-protection.pdf

But it really doesn't matter as much as the size as to the content...
let's just say i'm not just referencing this thread alone.
i agree that the length is a red herring used by those who oppose it.
 

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Lived in Dallas area my whole life and have never noticed these places. :laughing:
I've driven by there on the way back to my home (in the Kessler Park area) from the Lowes and Walmart at I30 and Cockrell Hill countless times.

I never noticed them until a couple of months ago after someone pointed them (and the nature of their business) out to me.
 

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That's right, it's going to be chaos for a number of years. Of course all other industrialized countries figured this all out a long time ago (single payer system) and have dramatically lower health care costs and better medical outcomes than we have.

Right now, the people with insurance subsidize the people without insurance, who use the highest cost options, like the emergency room for care, or wait until their health gets really bad, and then try to fix it. So bringing more people into the health insurance system is one way to help with costs.

Ultimately, we'll have to do what the rest of the first world countries do, but the smokescreen put out by the fear mongers makes that difficult for most people to see right now.
Well said. Change is not easy, especially to this degree. I hope we can all come to a consensus and agree no matter what, something does need to be done.
 

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One thing that never gets mentioned is it's quite possible for America to have the greatest national healthcare in the world. I do believe we have what it takes. What if?

What if we lead by example? I'm a pretty hard core conservative but it doesn't bother me it took a Liberal to try and solve it. Health care is a much bigger thing than politics.
 

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One thing that never gets mentioned is it's quite possible for America to have the greatest national healthcare in the world. I do believe we have what it takes. What if?

What if we lead by example? I'm a pretty hard core conservative but it doesn't bother me it took a Liberal to try and solve it. Health care is a much bigger thing than politics.
this is the key here. it's going to take cooperation from those in power to get any of our problems solved.
obama and the dems may have tried to solve it, but we're not there yet. still plenty of work to be done so long as we can move forward together.
 

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One thing that never gets mentioned is it's quite possible for America to have the greatest national healthcare in the world. I do believe we have what it takes. What if?

What if we lead by example? I'm a pretty hard core conservative but it doesn't bother me it took a Liberal to try and solve it. Health care is a much bigger thing than politics.
The #1 issue is cost. remember we are in deficit spending. Its all borrowed money. We are digging a deeper hole, soon we will never be able to get out.

A few of the reasons our cost have risen is because we (USA) are spend ing lots of money into R&D for health care, ways to make it more advanced, advances in medicine, technology for example. These are cost that are passed on to the end users (us the insured). Also paying for the illegals, we have to pick up the tab for them. ERs have closed all over the country because of them not being able to pay their bills.


So in the case of the illegals all the govt is doing is making us all pay for them (can someone say socialism redistribution of wealth).

Is this bill going to solve our problems? No I believe its going to make it worse. Cost will rise, premiums will rise. This does nothing but take the cost off the shoulders of the hospitals and put them on us.

As far as advancements? That will come to a halt, the govt wont pay.

Obama ( paraphrased, or my interpretation of what he said) has said that depending on the person, old, etc. It would effect the care given to them. if the Govt panel (death panel) decides that your parent father, mother etc isnt worth the cost of saveing their life they will give them some pills send them home to die. The panel to my knowledge will be made of govt bureaucrats not Dr.s
Anyway thisis a real CF we need to get someone new in office to shut this down.
 

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Faster, better, cheaper. If it doesn't make all 3, we're just fooling ourselves. So far, we're just fooling ourselves. None of the other systems out there make all 3, either. People promise the moom, and deliver a moon pie.
 
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