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8K views 48 replies 21 participants last post by  custrel 
#1 · (Edited)
I Have a current opening 4'8", interior passthrough going from 9' ceiling kitchen into two story family room, and want to increase the size 4 more feet for a total of 8'8"( two feet on each side without support). Currently, there is a 2x10 header and I am thinking that I may be able to get by with 12's. My idea is to finish off with eyebrow arches opening both rooms up a bit. Size sufficient? Also, I had seen a trick where a master carpenter tore-out an opening to size; leaving the studs. He then cut the studs on one side and placed one half of the header. After securing, he went and cut the other side, placed in that header, then tacked the two together. Anyone tried this? I am not in the mood for jacks nor temp wall as kids are abundant. I am an experienced carpenter but am not an engineer. I have checked references and believe it can be done. THANKS in advance for all replies and lets hope that 2010 is a good year for all of us!!!!!
 
#3 ·
The lumber yard where I get my glue lams from can calculate the loads and tell me what size glue lam I need. Try and find similar in your area.

I would A frame support, take out the existing, and install the new.

You will need continuous support to footings for the posts under the new beam.

If you check your building code book, it should tell you what size lintle you need.
 
#4 ·
Unless you can calculate the wind, snow, and combination dead/live loads you will need an engineer.
 
#8 ·
I've got 40yrs into the trade, have my journeymans' ticket - C of Q. I am still learning after all these years. My ego won't allow me to call myself a master carpenter.

Maybe I am, maybe not, I would think if in the eyes of your peers you are then they would be the judge of that.

I think I need two or three more lifetimes to learn everything. :laughing:
 
#9 ·
WOW...we must be bored...a framing load question turned into a definitions quest....the "master carpenter" is a title one supposedly bestows upon himself after achieving great prominance in all phases of carpentry...he can throw-up a house, trim it out then build all the furniture i guess...aka bob vila type. can we get back to the post? Thanks.
 
#32 ·
He's talking about cutting an 1-1/2" x 11-/1/2" notch in each side of the studs that will be removed to accept a 2x12. After that notch is made he will stick a 2x12 in there. Now that 2x12 is tight against the bottom of the top plate and the studs. No need for a temp wall becasue the 2x12 and the studs are still supporting the weight. Now you go on the other side of the studs and cut the rest of the stud out and slip the other 2x12. Nail your jacks on each side and now take out the studs.
 
#12 ·
I am not in the mood for jacks nor temp wall as kids are abundant...
Mood?

Don't judge the advice you're given on the basis that it doesn't conform to what you want to do. Several responders above I would consider masters of what they do. Take the tongue-in-cheek stuff the way you would on any jobsite, and heed the advice.
 
#15 ·
Mood?

Take the tongue-in-cheek stuff the way you would on any jobsite, and heed the advice.

By "jacks" I meant using jacks to brace the ceiling in the kitchen for support.....not "jacks" as in idiot. I am probably the worst heckler I know on the job and know it is in bad taste but terribly fun. I am heading the aforementioned advice...someone asked what a master carpenter was and I replied with what I knew....it does not matter to me where advice comes from....I have learned from the new kid on day one to the eldest of contractor's. weve each encountered and figured out numerous challenges that are basically the same. Only by checking with a vast amount of tradesman can we find a better suited way.
 
#13 ·
Use pillars?

What if I buy two wood pillars, mill-out for current studs, and wrap these around the framing already in place for the 4'8" opening. I would increase each side by 2' by removing one stud on each side. Tossing a 2x10 on each 2' run and call it a day. This would allow for a decorative approach with the eyebrow arch without a lot of risk and probably a lot less work. I am trying to keep down cost so $200 on a couple of pillars would beat an engineer cost.
 
#35 ·
What if I buy two wood pillars, mill-out for current studs, and wrap these around the framing already in place for the 4'8" opening. I would increase each side by 2' by removing one stud on each side. Tossing a 2x10 on each 2' run and call it a day. This would allow for a decorative approach with the eyebrow arch without a lot of risk and probably a lot less work. I am trying to keep down cost so $200 on a couple of pillars would beat an engineer cost.
This is Contractor Talk, not for homeowners trying to learn how to so it yourself.

Go to a DIY site and ask the hacks over there how to do it.
 
#17 ·
Let's put it another way. We cannot realistically answer your question without knowing all of the facts.

Not to mention most states require a permit for what you are looking to do and anything related to structural modification requires engineering.

An experienced carpenter would know

A. what to do
B. know their limits
C. that there are better ways than 3 separate headers for one opening
D. not have any children around while working on structural items or near remodeling
 
#20 ·
Let's put it another way. We cannot realistically answer your question without knowing all of the facts.

Not to mention most states require a permit for what you are looking to do and anything related to structural modification requires engineering.

An experienced carpenter would know

A. what to do
B. know their limits
C. that there are better ways than 3 separate headers for one opening
D. not have any children around while working on structural items or near remodeling
Framerman,
it says "custom carpentry and design" under your name so design me some custom carpentry so I can open my wall. Thanks.
 
#18 ·
there is no plumbing but, I have to move electrical either way. Actually, if i go the pillar route I can run a couple of accent eyeball lights just inside between the wall and each pillar in the center of the top of the opening. I would probably want the opening to be fully open but, think I can settle on the pillar. It is load bearing as the second floor is anchored there being a two story living room on the other side.
 
#19 ·
framerman,

The kids live in the house...i am very familiar with how the business end and permits go...it is in my own house not anyone else's....i know my limits but am also willing to learn more and tackle more...if it weren't for people trying new things we'd still be building mud huts.
 
#22 ·
I usually dont respond to these types of questions because there are to many variables to give an intelligent response. However the desire to do the job without temp support compelled me. Do it the correct way, temp walls on either side, 24'' centers, whats the big deal, it will take you half an hr to set up... Go with double 2x12's with a piece a piece of 1/2'' plywood between for good measure. Glue the header system together, new Jack's . be done with it. BTW, the master carpenter who did it as you described, sounds lazy, GMOD, Oyea--Crown UP
 
#25 ·
Thanks. The "master carpenter" was renovating a historical home and found ways to disrupt as little as possible inorder to maintain, or return, a home to it's original intention. Never tried it his way but, thought it looked interesting. There was also an article about doing it this way in a trade mag that I cant remember. Sure, bracing is not a big deal but, I can only brace on the one side ans the opening leads to a two story living room on the other side. I may put steel inbetween the 2x12's and bolt it all together. That should provide more than I would need despite not figuring dead/live loads. LOL on the crown-up!
 
#29 ·
Temporary Support
If you want to install a beam in an existing bearing wall, there are all sorts of tricks and methods. If it is an interior wall, there is a cool way to install a beam without building any temporary support walls. You need to have access to both sides of the wall into which the beam is going to be placed. All that you do is simply install half of the beam at a time. You make 1.5 inch deep notches at the top of one side of the wall and slide the beam into this recess. Add the king studs at each end of the beam that run from top plate to bottom plate. You then add the jack studs next to the king studs. These framing members actually support the load from the beam. If the rough opening of the new beam is 72 inches or less, you generally only need one jack stud at each end. Once all of this is in place and the jack studs are solidly supported from beneath, you can take out the remaining old notched the wall will be carried by the one half of the beam that is secure and in place. Be sure to have the second half of the beam already cut and ready to slide in place!

I knew I would find this article somewhere...look, I am well aware that an engineer may be the guy here...I have installed plenty of structural elements and am well aware that they had all been placed as part of a plan. What I am trying to do is bend a few ears and get some input on doing something at MY OWN house...the economy and trades are rough right now so I am trying to do some projects at the house that I have neglected over time and finish the honey do list. I do not however, wanna break the bank either. The hacks are taking over a large portion of the inductry here in Ohio, Cleveland, and are bottoming out pricing. That is why I am trying to mitigate as much cost as I can. The tradesman of old did not have arct and eng'r on site and they did pretty damn well.......
 
#30 ·
Sorry about the master carpenter thing, wasn't trying to hijack your post.

Ok, if you replace the jack/king with posts then your open span will remain the same. No problem. To extend past that two feet - If your span is 4'8" you can only cantilever 1 in 4, so that will allow you to cantilever 1'2" past your new post location. Not 2'0"

If you use steel instead of ply in the beam, - this is called a flitch beam - I think it is overkill. Check your code book for spans/sizes.

Yes, you can replace one part of beam/header at a time, but put some A frame temp. bracing under it. Much easier to just support it and take it all out at once.

If you would like me to look up the required beam size, let me know. Perhaps you don't have a code book. (though you should have) :whistling
 
#49 ·
Check your code book for spans/sizes.

:whistling
You can, and should, find the answers to your question in the Residential Building Code AND check your state/local codes as they may be more restrictive.

You may not need an engineer depending on your locality. In any case, when you submit your drawings for your permit (please get a permit), your county/city permit office will let you know if you need an engineer's approval for your work.

While some of the advice you get here might be 100% accurate, there are usually specific county/city regulations that only builders in your immediate area would be aware of.

Call your permit office, tell them what you are trying to do, they should refer you to the relevant web sites where you can get the information specific to your region and exactly what steps you need to take to get your work done.
 
#31 ·
Tradesman of old as you put it used time tested and proven methods of construction. There is a reason so many houses of the early 18th century looked the same in the various regions. Wooden frames from those times were massively over sized, not because there were engineered that way but because as logs were squared up the largest sized timber member was extracted. I think everyone here feels you pain on the hacks, but its really hard to give structural advice without seeing the the problem in front of us. Framerman posted a great thread on this.
http://www.contractortalk.com/f14/structural-advice-33004/
 
#37 ·
Somehow loading seems to have been missed here. The header is sized as a function of load and span. If there are point loads near the end(s) of the 2X10, a 2X12 in the larger opening may fail.

You don't tell us what this is sitting on. If it sits on a wood framed floor, you will need to re-engineer the floor loading. If it sits on a slab, you will need to thicken the slab in the new post locations.

The whole thing about notching the studs to install the 2X12 seems like a dumb idea. You're going to spend 2 hours to save 20 minutes.
 
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