[JohnFRWhipple]

My Structural Plans for my North Vancouver Renovation include this;

Note 2 on my Upper Floor Plan drawings states this

"At Upper Floor. Gypsum Wall board are to be fastened to framing with 1 1/2" roofing nails or Eq. @ 7" O/C all studs."

Note 2 on my Existing Main Floor Plan states the same

"At Main Floor. Gypsum Wall board are to be fastened to framing with 1 1/2" roofing nails or Eq. @ 7" O/C all studs."

Note 2 of my Basement Floor Plan states

"At Basement floor. Gypsum Wall board are to be fastened to framing with 1 1/2" roofing nails or Eq. @ 7" O/C all studs."


Is a ring shank drywall nail equal in strength? Is a #6 1 5/8" course thread drywall screw equal? Is some increased strength in your homes shear strength worth the extra labour?

Good questions...


My home is located in North Vancouver, BC.

Design Load

Ground Snow Load 68.92 P.S.F.
Associated Rain Load 6.3 P.S.F.
Wind Pressure (q/30) 10.0 P.S.F.
Floor live load 40.0 P.S.F.

Seismic Design Parameters

Sa (0.2) = 0.88
Sa (1.0) = 0.33
PGA = 0.44
Fv = 1.0
Fa = 1.0
Site Class = C

 

[thom]

Nothing wrong with nails at the perimeter HOWEVER, it does change the fastener spacing.

Fastener spacing is determined by they type and thickness of the board used stud spacing, and with or without adhesive, but generally the maximum fastener spacing is larger with screws. If you use nails at the edges, you must use the nail fastener spacing schedule to the first screw away from the nail, then you can use the screw spacing schedule.

on a typical 16"OC stud spacing wall with 1/2" drywall, no adhesive, nails are placed 8" oc maximum while screws are spaced 16" oc maximum. On a ceiling, 16" oc framing, nails are 7" oc maximum and screws 12" oc maximum.

Of course, this all assumes you are using the IRC.

 

[Capt-Sheetrock]

Ya know,,, most of the posts on nail/screw problems are beacuse of the framing moving. When that happens, nothing is gonna help.

If the framing DON'T move, then ANY way of fastening the drywall will work.

So what are we really saying,,,,, Is there a way to fasten drywall, that framing members that move will NOT effect it ???

 

[AARC Drywall]

Great discussion men!

I spoke about this point with my structural engineer last week. His answer to me is that the shear strength of a wall is increased by 30 + percent if the dry wall is nailed @ 7" centers along the perimeter. Dry wall adds so much strength to the home and this added strength can be lost by using screws.

This extra sheer strength is over the top and a walls strength is meet by standard framing and exterior sheathing. If you only need roofing nails to gain 30 - 40 percent sheer strength and the down side is a few nail pops - why not???

I have added extra blocking and a wack of Strong tie strap to increase my homes "Shake and Hold" properties. My girls and I spent an afternoon pounding extra nails preparing for the "BIG ONE".

I'll add this nails in my home, simple insurance and added safety.

Ok, this is getting out of control.....if drywall was such a detrimental part of the house, then why is it that there is no drywall inspection before finishing...in Canada anyways.
We do not nail in the field, for several reasons, and the main one is that the hammer marks are a ***** to fill, because they are bigger, and when you hit drywall with a hammer it will damage the lower board. In the old days they use double nail everything...this was because of the strength of nails. But to get that strength they had to double nail every 8 to 10 inches. Screws hold better than nails any day of the week, when installed properly. When you add glue into the mix, its better again, and allows less screws to be used on walls. The glue will hold better than screws. Its a proven fact.
When i learned to drywall we were nailing the edges and screwing the field. 2 screws on 16"c and 3 screws on 24" c....now we are screwing everything, because its way faster, and more effective. There are some areas were we have to nail, but with our auto guns, there is no comparison as to screws over nails, screws will win.

We recently did a job were the previous drywallers pushed up their misses in the ceiling, over time these screws pushed down, and made it look like a screw pop...but the screw was not anchored to anything....it was pretty interesting to see.
J

 

[AARC Drywall]

Note 2 on my Upper Floor Plan drawings states this

"At Upper Floor. Gypsum Wall board are to be fastened to framing with 1 1/2" roofing nails or Eq. @ 7" O/C all studs."

Note 2 on my Existing Main Floor Plan states the same

"At Main Floor. Gypsum Wall board are to be fastened to framing with 1 1/2" roofing nails or Eq. @ 7" O/C all studs."

Note 2 of my Basement Floor Plan states

"At Basement floor. Gypsum Wall board are to be fastened to framing with 1 1/2" roofing nails or Eq. @ 7" O/C all studs."


Is a ring shank drywall nail equal in strength? Is a #6 1 5/8" course thread drywall screw equal? Is some increased strength in your homes shear strength worth the extra labour?

Good questions...


My home is located in North Vancouver, BC.

Design Load

Ground Snow Load 68.92 P.S.F.
Associated Rain Load 6.3 P.S.F.
Wind Pressure (q/30) 10.0 P.S.F.
Floor live load 40.0 P.S.F.

Seismic Design Parameters

Sa (0.2) = 0.88
Sa (1.0) = 0.33
PGA = 0.44
Fv = 1.0
Fa = 1.0
Site Class = C

Ummmmm...think about it this way....do you use roofing nails to put down the 5/8 sheeting over the floor joist? NO i should hope not anyways...
If i read your comment right, it says to use roofing nails???
Get a new plan.....
There is no strength in roofing nails over drywall nails... you can pull out roofing nails easy. So why would you want to put that in mud over them and then in a year have so many nail heads pushing out, then you will have to get them fixed, because it will drive you crazy......Never use roofing nails to install drywall. The drywall nail is designed to hold into wood. Were as if you used all screws, it would be better and faster to install.
WOW....in most cases drywall is a min requirement to the building code. and it can be replaced by having paneling . And we all know that paneling has little to now strength to it as to shear...and drywall will have little bit more, but because the interior core is brittle, if the wood moves on the outside, the drywall will break...the only hope that you have to hold it in place is glue, nails, or screws... not roofing nails.

 

[ontario-drywall]

typical piecework

its typical in home construction but screws are better im faster screwing drywall then nailing it myself

 

[JumboJack]

Ok, this is getting out of control.....if drywall was such a detrimental part of the house, then why is it that there is no drywall inspection before finishing...in Canada anyways.
We do not nail in the field, for several reasons, and the main one is that the hammer marks are a ***** to fill, because they are bigger, and when you hit drywall with a hammer it will damage the lower board. In the old days they use double nail everything...this was because of the strength of nails. But to get that strength they had to double nail every 8 to 10 inches. Screws hold better than nails any day of the week, when installed properly. When you add glue into the mix, its better again, and allows less screws to be used on walls. The glue will hold better than screws. Its a proven fact.
When i learned to drywall we were nailing the edges and screwing the field. 2 screws on 16"c and 3 screws on 24" c....now we are screwing everything, because its way faster, and more effective. There are some areas were we have to nail, but with our auto guns, there is no comparison as to screws over nails, screws will win.

We recently did a job were the previous drywallers pushed up their misses in the ceiling, over time these screws pushed down, and made it look like a screw pop...but the screw was not anchored to anything....it was pretty interesting to see.
J

We have D/W inspections here to check the nail/screw schedule.

 

[ApgarNJ]

There are millions of houses built hanging drywall long before screws and ring shank nails came out with no problems, why would nails in the field now be a bad idea?

NAIL POPS. a long time ago, only nails were used and no glue and they always pop at some point. maybe not all but they do.

i can understand nailing the edges to tack it up but screws should be used edges and field for a better install. i have noticed that crews rely more on the glue and less fasteners than ever before.
which is why some areas have drywall inspections now to make sure the correct fasteners are used. i have heard of entire ceilings falling down injuring people.

 

[Willie 2]

When using drywall glue I am assuming there is no vapor barrier. ( plastic ) ?

 

[ApgarNJ]

i've used screws on the whole board before with zero glue and never a problem with cracking, popping anything, glue is good but it just means they put less fasteners in usually.
most areas around here do not use plastic on the insides. i'd say for areas that do, then they wouldn't be using glue.

 

[Willie 2]

Another question; what about the use of mechanical fasteners on the edges of the ceiling to combat cracking caused by truss uplift, not everyone here uses them ????

 

[JohnFRWhipple]

What is the "Best" way to hang drywall - describe "Best"

We have D/W inspections here to check the nail/screw schedule.

You live in California I'm guessing. Is this inspection for the added shear strength? I'm wondering. California and Vancouver all live in the under lying fear of "The Big One" the massive 8.0 Earthquake coming any day to wreck havoc on our lives.

We pay every year for earthquake insurance, we pay a lot for this protection. We now have Geotechnical engineers and Structural engineers designing our homes to be safer and meet stricter guidelines. People study all types of construction and it is clear you are safer in a 2010 wood frame home than a 1980's Vancouver special condo. With that some of our poorest build homes in Vancouver are calculated to survive "The Big One"

There is a wack of metal and plywood in my home that would have never been used 60 - 80 years ago. Is my home stronger than say my clients home built in 1925? I think so.

What is the "Best" way to hang drywall?

If your paid by the square foot to hang drywall it makes sense to be as efficient as possible, do you skip the nails along the bottom? Many guys do. I see it all the time. Is the baseboard installed with a few 2" braids the "best" way to install drywall at the bottom plate? Do you install full sheets and just block the seems between studs (This is the best way for reduced drywall, that's greener)?

If you have a young family living at home, they learn about Earthquakes in school, hear about them on TV and this is something I face once or twice a year with my girls. If I nail my drywall, build my shear walls, install my H1's and all other Simpson Strong Tie fastners is my home stronger than your home? Is my home stronger than the exact same home with out? I believe the answer to this is "Yes" a little.

I was told that the drywall installed with 1 1/2" roofing nails can make my home 30-40 percent stronger in it's shear strength. If nails and screws are used surely you gain as well - lets guess 20 percent added strength. So is it the best way to use screws if screws are not as strong as nails???

If you want a perfect finish, hate tradesmen in your home and are not prepared to pay for these calls backs and nail pops (lets face it nails will pop) then a standard install is best.

I'm going to check with my City Hall here in North Vancouver and ask them. I'll be honest - I don't want any nail pops, I don't wan't to pay more for my installation, my dry waller doesn't use nails.

If all sources and current Earthquake testing clearly show this increased strength I will look for a hybrid technique or nail the sheets myself. I'm honestly confused and a little deflated over the subject. Our homes are costing so much to build it's insane. Ever year a stronger code, another bracket and bolt, another site visit another $1,000.00

Another $600.00
Another $2,000.00

And on and on...


Here is a good article for you West Coasters;
http://www.abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/manual/PT07-Ch-3A.PDF

 

[Willie 2]

John : I am not a dry waller but I am following this thread as I will be building in the SE corner of BC and want to do things right for the climate there.

 

[ApgarNJ]

roofing nails without the coating aren't going to hold into wood as good as drywall nails and screws /glue will hold better than nails. not sure john why anyone would use roof nails for the entire sheet of drywall and think that is going to help them in a big earthquake
it might make it stronger but that is the last place i'd want to rely on to keep me safe.

 

[JumboJack]

You live in California I'm guessing. Is this inspection for the added shear strength? I'm wondering. California and Vancouver all live in the under lying fear of "The Big One" the massive 8.0 Earthquake coming any day to wreck havoc on our lives.

We pay every year for earthquake insurance, we pay a lot for this protection. We now have Geotechnical engineers and Structural engineers designing our homes to be safer and meet stricter guidelines. People study all types of construction and it is clear you are safer in a 2010 wood frame home than a 1980's Vancouver special condo. With that some of our poorest build homes in Vancouver are calculated to survive "The Big One"

There is a wack of metal and plywood in my home that would have never been used 60 - 80 years ago. Is my home stronger than say my clients home built in 1925? I think so.

What is the "Best" way to hang drywall?

If your paid by the square foot to hang drywall it makes sense to be as efficient as possible, do you skip the nails along the bottom? Many guys do. I see it all the time. Is the baseboard installed with a few 2" braids the "best" way to install drywall at the bottom plate? Do you install full sheets and just block the seems between studs (This is the best way for reduced drywall, that's greener)?

If you have a young family living at home, they learn about Earthquakes in school, hear about them on TV and this is something I face once or twice a year with my girls. If I nail my drywall, build my shear walls, install my H1's and all other Simpson Strong Tie fastners is my home stronger than your home? Is my home stronger than the exact same home with out? I believe the answer to this is "Yes" a little.

I was told that the drywall installed with 1 1/2" roofing nails can make my home 30-40 percent stronger in it's shear strength. If nails and screws are used surely you gain as well - lets guess 20 percent added strength. So is it the best way to use screws if screws are not as strong as nails???

If you want a perfect finish, hate tradesmen in your home and are not prepared to pay for these calls backs and nail pops (lets face it nails will pop) then a standard install is best.

I'm going to check with my City Hall here in North Vancouver and ask them. I'll be honest - I don't want any nail pops, I don't wan't to pay more for my installation, my dry waller doesn't use nails.

If all sources and current Earthquake testing clearly show this increased strength I will look for a hybrid technique or nail the sheets myself. I'm honestly confused and a little deflated over the subject. Our homes are costing so much to build it's insane. Ever year a stronger code, another bracket and bolt, another site visit another $1,000.00

Another $600.00
Another $2,000.00

And on and on...


Here is a good article for you West Coasters;
http://www.abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/manual/PT07-Ch-3A.PDF

Rarely is the drywall play a big part in the sheer calcs.The inspections have more to do with making sure the DW doesn't fall off the wall/ceiling.They look to make sure the right size and amount of fasteners are used and that they are not driven too deep.

 

[JohnFRWhipple]

Light Shear Wall Testing

http://timber.ce.wsu.edu/Resources/papers/5-4-1.pdf

Another interesting article. I skimmed through this article and it seams that in the high risk zones the added shear strength is reduced by half. The drywall as a shear wall did preform very well in less forceful tests.

My city inspector informed me that it's your structural engineer that will make these calculations and final calls.

I'll keep digging.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Just trying to figure out where you're going with all of this, John. While I fully understand your desire to have a strong house, and protect your family and possessions, you keep posting questions about the specs dictated by those who set the minimums, and those whose job it is to understand and design to those limits.

Do you want a nuclear-hardened site, or a shanty to keep the rain out? I'm honestly having a hard time telling.

There is a wack of metal and plywood in my home that would have never been used 60 - 80 years ago. Is my home stronger than say my clients home built in 1925? I think so.

Sure your home is stronger. But your client's home is still standing. That ought to tell you something. :thumbsup:

 

[JohnFRWhipple]

Whose house will be standing after an Earth Quake?

I keep asking questions because I'm exploring all the information. If my structural engineer included this nailing pattern on my structural plans I'm sure he did so for a reason. I have learned a ton about Shear walls over the past few days and the causes for their failure.

I have survived a Hurricane (only a cat 4) while living in the Caribbean a number of years ago and being at the mercy of Mother Nature is very humbling when your bunkered down in a Condo build of cement and stucco, with fridges and couches are floating around.

I have seen whole subdivisions flattened by a tornado with new construction the norm. What I find fascinating is in one example a simple stick framed home was the sole survivor. This home had no trusses and was not mass produced.

I'm a general contractor here in Vancouver. I'm the father of three and have my four special girls under this roof I'm in charge of, resting on footings I poured, tied in with fasteners and rebar I laid.

We have high winds and endless amounts of rain in North Vancouver and the 120' tree 18' away from my home is also alarming. It takes so little to beef up a home - but even these simple steps all add up and cost a ton.

They say the big one that is going to hit Vancouver happens once every 3000 years or something. No homes in my town are that old, no trees that old and no ancient structures to study. No one nows if the big one will come in my life time, my kids lifetime or later.

There is a team of researchers from Vancouver in Santiago studying the effects of the huge earth quake on their homes and buildings. In Santiago the building codes are quite close to ours and it was great to see how well the condos and homes held up. There was little loss of life and many homes where able to be re entered after the Quake.

However many homes and multi unit housing survived the Earth Quake but where no longer fit for families. All those people have to move, find new homes, deal with insurance etc.

Here in Vancouver are local TV stations and radio spots like to hype up the story so more people tune in. You can be listening to the radio with your kids and hear this "WE KNOW THE BIG ONE IS COMING! IS YOUR FAMILY SAFE? TUNE IN A SIX O'CLOCK AND GET THE WHOLE STORY." When your 8 year old daughter looks up at you and asks you if our home is safe - and you tell her it is totally safe, stronger than the rest I promise you, you will understand my drive and interest in this subject.

I'm not try to stir the pot, I'm not saying every one is installing things wrong, I'm not trying to scare anyone.

I'm keeping a promise to my little girl....

Some background info on my home.

My home is a rancher built in 1955. We added to the foundation and added a floor. The total finished square footage will be 3100. Cost to build $140 per square foot. Working with shear walls is new to me. We have only incorporated these in maybe 5 projects over the past 7 years. My homes design has two long shear walls in the basement and main floor of my home.

I'll be paying for this home until the cows come home - I never want to regret skipping a step, the bones and safety of my home is number one. I have installed 8 hard wired smokies, 3 hard wired monitored smokies and my girls and I have all ready planned our emergency fire drills. This stuff they teach our kids in the local schools, they come home asking "Dad what is our fire plan?"

I work as a renovator and am spoiled by the high end nature of most of my projects. I'm often paid to research and source materials and have learned a ton over the years this way. I however don't have the same deep pockets as those I work for and have to find balance in my home. If I can simply take some strong tie and diagonally strap some walls , is this stronger than nailing drywall? I bet it is. I can strap these extra walls in a half day for maybe $400.00 in materials, this way the drywall goes on regular with glues and screws and I know my home meets every shear capacity it was designed for.

Finding this information should be easy and if it's not I'll ask my engineer. Going forward I'll discuss this option with new clients and new designers and all of this will be background information. If you can afford to spend $100,000 on a bathroom, $150,000 on cabinets, $60,000 for a new roof surly you would want to know about your $5,000.00 Shear wall upgrades....

 

[Inner10]

John, I'm no drywaller or engineer but I just can't see roofing nails in the drywall making the house stronger.:blink:

Wouldn't the drywall get reamed out and break up from the movement before a nail or screw even sheared? If you want the best strength I would glue the snot out of it and use whatever fastener you want. Or why not nail some 7/16 OSB or plywood to the wall and really stiffen up.

I'm not undermining the intelligence of your engineer, but I would have him explain this or consult with someone else. Arn't roofing nails for roofs?

When using drywall glue I am assuming there is no vapor barrier. ( plastic ) ?

Willie, in my province we have to have vapor barrier on all exterior surfaces. Gluing is not that popular but when I do see it happen it goes right over the plastic.

 

[Willie 2]

And does anyone use those metal drywall fasteners on the edges of ceiling drywall to combat the cracking caused by truss uplift ??