Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It's been years since I've let a store make me a gray primer and once again I'm in for extra coats...

It used to be that they'd tint a primer 50-75% of the final red color and send you out the door. After the first few times doing 5 coats of a premium B-M or S-W I asked for a 100% tint and the results were much better.

After priming "P-3" gray and putting one finish of C.A. on the door, I know I've got at least two more coats. I's 2009! I want 1 primer and two finishes, max. I may just return this to S-W and color match a quart of Aura. I don't need the 10 bucks, I need to not paint a door 4 times.

Yes, I should buy an HVLP. Sell me your used one and hook me up with a qualified mechanic...:whistling

Now, I could be completely wrong about this so put away the napalm if I'm outta line :tongue_smilie:

Thoughts?
 

·
Particulate Filter
Joined
·
4,430 Posts
I have yet to talk to a paint store employee who knew what the hell I was talking about! "Does that color need a grey scale primer and if so what #?" All I ever get is :blink::blink::blink:
 

·
Pro
Joined
·
63 Posts
If this is doors that you're talking about painting, are you spraying them? If not, you should be.

If you HAVE to brush/roll them, go with a hi hide coating. GP's HP2000 is awesome (red base). Then again i'm in Canada, and GP is a Vancouver based company so I don't know if you have it there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I use them occasionally. The fourth time around the room is the charm!
I've had one store tint a red to 75% for the primer. It came out pink:clap:
The finish coat was Deep Rose, which is an Ultra Deep Base. IT took 5 COATS! and I was still not completely happy. The guy at the store, who was generally knowledgable, suggested that the paint needed more time to dry for better molecular bonding and what-not. They really spew out whatever the marketing folks tell them.

One of the best results I've had, was when I went against the stores recommendations and had them tint a Zinser Deep-Base Primer to 100% of the cololr Mexicana (?) I was using. One Primer and One Finish of Super Spec Flat, and it was good enough for my apartment. Two finishes would've been perfect.

For all of my gripes about Aura's shortfalls, they really nailed Reds. Not to say that I've used every red possible but I just think the Gray Primer is a scam that wastes time. Why not use the same color in a flat/primer?

The customer dropped by yesterday (house is unoccupied) and he took a look at the door. I told him it will need 2 more coats and not to be concerned with how it looked. He thought that I had painted over a white primer, when in fact, it was a P-3.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If this is doors that you're talking about painting, are you spraying them? If not, you should be.

If you HAVE to brush/roll them, go with a hi hide coating. GP's HP2000 is awesome (red base). Then again i'm in Canada, and GP is a Vancouver based company so I don't know if you have it there.
We do not have GP, but I appreciate the feedback.

As far as spraying goes, it's not always possible for me to pop a door and spray it, especially a front door. This time of year it's too windy to take outside and catch debris. Also, this door is on a modest house without a basement or garage.

2 thin sprayed coats over a RED primer would definitely work
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
515 Posts
I always have grey bonding primer on hand...actually 3 quarts from light to dark. One coat of primer, two coats of red and its done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ahh... Well all I can say is that I'm using the recommended primer for this specific red and I don't see it covering in 2.
 

·
Pro
Joined
·
63 Posts
It would seem an obvious answer then, use a red base prime coat. BM Aura has a red base, yellow base, etc. Prime with aura, topcoat with whatever. If its an exterior door, Aura has an exterior paint product.

They keep saying that Aura is a 1 coat cover product for exterior - let's see if they're right about that!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It would seem an obvious answer then, use a red base prime coat. BM Aura has a red base, yellow base, etc. Prime with aura, topcoat with whatever. If its an exterior door, Aura has an exterior paint product.

They keep saying that Aura is a 1 coat cover product for exterior - let's see if they're right about that!
I trust the Aura will work. I'll be returning the S-W on principle. They didn't have the red base and I was told the gray would work. I should be able to get this done with one coat of Aura after the gray primer and 1st coat red. If I have to do 2 so be it, but it won't be with the color scapes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Hmm, I've never had an issue with 1 coat of Gray bonding primer + 2 coats of Red in Semi/Flat. Are you using a higher sheen topcoat?

Any paint store employee who mixes a red primer at 75% in a white tin base should be fired. Of course it's going to come out pink, that's why they don't use a white tint base for the finish.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
I tint paint as well as being a painter. I will say that the gray primer works! Even though I work part time at the local Lowe's paint counter for bennies, I am quite knowledgeable. You will not achieve any reduction in the total number of coats for tough colors by tinting the primer to a % of the desired color whether it be reds, deep vibrant blues, bright green, orange, yellow, etc. You DO need the proper color gray primer.
I will say there is a flaw in the g1-g5 tinting system for grayscale. For lots of reds commonly used for say a front door, there is a large gap between the g4 and g5 gray. I care enough, even when very busy to do a test of the topcoat color over a sample of the gray primer. I start with a p? and adjust it as I see fit until I am satisfied. Lots of times a g3 or g4 is too light and a g5 is way too dark. With just 1 or 2 trips back to the tinter aqnd a quick test, they leave with the proper gray to do the job in 2 topcoats. (That is if they had any clue how to paint haha)
The unfortunate part is that most employees that tint your paint at the SW's and the like have never really painted. They have no real field experience so they have no clue if the gray they are mixing will actually work as well as it could.
Why does the gray primer work better than just tinting the primer to a % of the original color you ask? Simple really. The colors that have coverage problems have a large amount of synthetic colorants in them as opposed to natural ones. Natural ones are fairly opaque while synthetic ones are very translucent. The large amount of synthetic colorant will produce a translucent topcoat.
Most likely you are planning to paint these translucent colors over a white substrate. White is the most reflective color. When the translucent topcoat sits atop a highly reflective substrate, light will pass through the topcoat, reflect off the substrate, and beam back out some silly looking crap that looks nothing like the desired color. This is usually a much lighter blotchy version of the desired. Black is the least reflective color, while gray varies. Applying the proper gray base-coat allows one to control the amount of reflectivity which best suits the translucence of the color you are trying to get.
Again, it REALLY REALLY works, but ONLY if you have the correct shade of gray that does not always fall in the 5 common choices. The fix for this is to remember this, and when getting the primer tinted, make sure they do a sample of the topcoat over white, then a sample over the gray primer. If there is too much of the gray that shows through, it means it is probably too light, so have them add a little more black. It will be very obvious when it is too dark, trust me. Also, and this is VERY IMPORTANT - - make sure they lay the topcoat samples very and equally thin over the white and gray primer, NO CHEATING. None of this 3 drop mountain crap over the gray.
StefanC has the right idea by carrying some white and black in the field so he can adjust in the field and on the fly as needed. Don't trust a tint person that you don't know and don't be afraid to ask them for another 5 minutes to adjust the gray if it is not working. If they screw it up or go to dark, make em' eat it and start again. Life is to freakin short to have to paint a door or a room with 4-5 coats!

Alton
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
166 Posts
I too have been having problems that we really have never had in the past with both reds and dark colors. WE have used the Aura and honestly its just ok. For us definitely not worth the price. For the deep reds and dark colors I still spec the same system that we have been using for 5 or 6 years. We use the muralo cover-all high hide primer. This can is very heavy but it will make the wall red, blue, yellow etc in 1 coat. Then we follow with 2 finish coats of eggshell or semi if its outside. This for us is the only system that works every time. Any wall even starting yellow or white and we can make it any red with primer and 2 coats. Every other time I have been talked into something else by a paint store employee or salesman the quart or gallon either ends up going back or we are comped the extra paint to do multiple coats.
 

·
...jammin
Joined
·
5,234 Posts
I have traditionally preferred gray primer for reds or blues
IMO they work very well
Best part is: leftovers can be re-used for other colors
Reduce, Re-use, Recycle, etc...
In The Now:
Especially in these tough economic times every penny counts
It works, it saves, it helps...

PS. Aura black sucks no matter what primer or how many coats* (and I love Aura otherwise)
If you need black, go "factory" (off the shelf)

*Aura black is tinted at the shop...sorry BM and store Tint-Masters but "store tinted" black is "charcoal" at best
 

·
Knowledgeable Tinter!
Joined
·
65 Posts
We don't even let-'em have a Red w/o GRAY primer...

We don't sell Reds/Magenta's unless we make sure:shifty:....

a) They already have Gray primer,
b) Or will buy Gray primer with their Red,
c) their Painter is using Gray primer....

I've got my favorite formula's for our medium-deep Grays...mostly into our C2 primers.
We get the gray-level to ~ pencil-lead gray.

Optically...Gray is the best backdrop-color.
* It doesn't really influence CORRECTLY APPLIED topcoats. It just effectively reduces light reflected back through some fairly sheer topcoats...thus making those colors appear correct with fewer coats.
* Gray is also a very versatile color primer. Can be used under 98% of colors:clap:.
* PLUS...there isn't so much colorant in it. Dries faster than a primer with a ton of colorant.
* "Bubble-gum" pinks and pastel-tone primers DO NOTHING under deep colors. They're still TOO WHITE to reduce light transmittal through sheerer bases:party:.

Faron
 
Joined
·
1,183 Posts
This red going over a white wall, covered two coats.

We used to paint a chain off local drug stores that had a bright red sofit over there pharmacy area. We tried grey primer and two coats of finish paint from BM, SW and ICI none of them worked.

Last time we used two coats of AURA and covered like a glove. I have absolutely no ties to BM I just tell it like it is.

 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top