Some GFCIs with higher patent numbers may be able to handle motor loads without nuisance tripping. IMO, the motor winding capacitance to the housing is the problem, in addition to the inrush current.

I'm not a sparky and I don't know the NEC but I'd just run two independent ground wires so that an internal motor failure cannot possibly shock anyone.

For $16 you can get a water level alarm.

Knowing the 7 min on(?) and how many min off(?) and what size pump(?) you can size a battery/inverter system for this. You also need to know how long the power may be out.

A 5A, 120v motor at 50% duty cycle for 24 hours needs 7200 watthour storage.

If you measure the sump refill rate (easy) you may find you can use a smaller pump. The duty cycle will also tell you this.

 

Dedicated 15 amp circuit.

NEC requires a GFI in the location.

If your on city water install a municipal water sump pump.

Tom

 

There is a water back up sump pump

 

Water driven back up sump pump--------yes.

You must have municipal water supply, wont work on a well.

Here is one, Google municipal water sump pump for more choices.

http://www.libertypumps.com/Products/Category/SubCategory/Product/?p=76&s=23&c=14

Easy to install.

Tom

 

"US Patent No. 8,500,412"

That is a high patent number.

So 50 PSI with a 10' head gives you 13 GPM plus a water-powered alarm. Way good, assuming your water supply doesn't fail when your power fails. And with 70% efficiency [sort of] it's as good as an electric pump.

I'm surprised http://www.nema.org/pages/default.aspx doesn't sue the inventor for 'restraint of free trade' or some such thing.

 

So 50 PSI with a 10' head gives you 13 GPM plus a water-powered alarm. Way good, assuming your water supply doesn't fail when your power fails.

If the water supply fails also, it's just not your day. Deal with it tomorrow.

Tom

 

On many jobs we use a single dedicated outlet for sump pump. We have also used the water powered sump pumps, while costly they work very well. For every gallon of water used it pumps out 2, noisy though. But it keeps the water out, much better than battery powered pumps

the one tom posted is the same one we use, needs 3/4 water line at sump, backflow preventer, above ground discharge etc

 

Do you ever install the

"indoor 115v alarm with 9v battery back-up. compact probe mounted sensor, auxiliary contacts with visual and audio alarm."

with the pump?

I don't see much reason to.

 

Single round receptacle also.

Tom

 

On a dedicated circuit.

 

I've got the single round receptacle, but the water heater exhaust motor, the water softener, the air to air exchanger and the light are all before the damn pump. What the heck?

 

The pump I run a separate circuit for. Water heater and water softener combined. A to A with furnace. Light with other lights.

Tom

 

Install a new GFCI. If it's tripping too, the pump has a fault and needs to be replaced.

I agree that a sump pump should not be required to be on a GFCI but the code is the code and we have to comply with it for liability reasons.

 

Normally I would agree with you with the NEC code stepping to far but as you just mentioned if the GFCI is tripping then there is a fault with the unit. Simply checking resistance from the ground terminal to the common of the pump plug would verify this. Now even if it trips the GFCI but works normal on a non protected circuit is it still safe to use? Do they put it on a non protected circuit and wait for the fault to become bad enough to trip the breaker or have someone get injured?

IMO anything directly dealing with water where a person may have in contact should be GFCI protected. Where I think the NEC stepped a little far is the requirement of a GFCI circuit for say a fridge or freezer in a basement/garage area. I myself put those on dedicated circuits so I don't chance a loss of thousands of dollars in food over a faulty device.

 

Since the NEC may not budge, does anyone make motors that are specifically designed to work reliably with GFCIs?

For starters, they'd have a very low winding-to-case capacitance and maybe a low inrush current (achieved electronically).

Of course, doing so would admit that there is a problem.

BTW, with vehicle problems that the dealership has not admitted to, there is always 'the aftermarket'. There doesn't seem to be a parallel in this situation.

 

Can someone show me where a sump pump is required to have a dedicated or individual branch circuit? I under stand if the pump draws more than 10 amps on a 20 amp circuit that there is an issue based on 210.23(A)(2) if the pump is fastened in place. I have not seen any that were fastened.

The point is I have never seen an article that requires a sump pump to have a dedicated circuit. I search the NEC pdf and still have not come across that requirement

 

if the pump is fastened in place. I have not seen any that were fastened.

Does PVC pipe count as 'fastened'?

 

From 2002
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-requirements-ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-gfci

However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump. (means no duplex outlet)?

It may have changed since then.

BTW, I am about the last person in the world to help an electrician, if I have this time.
I don't know the NEC and they mostly no likey me!:no:

 

I am not talking about gfci I am talking about an individual circuit which was mentioned earlier in the thread. In most cases a gfci would be required because of the location of the sump pump.

 

I guess I have not helped an electrician, after all. :sad:

BTW, my username should be
Je l'ai eu jusqu'à ici
:laughing:

 

If I remember correctly a dedicated outlet ( single ) not a dedicated circuit, is what my electrician said.

A faulty gfi on a sump pump can ruin much more than a freezer full of food, I have a customer who knows this first hand. Almost 2 ft of water in the basement, now they have single non gfi outlet and 2 water alarms.

 

I guess the same logic could apply to a trigger-happy AFCI. And I should have done this for my new, basement WH.

"Water heaters having an ignition source shall be elevated so that the source of ignition is not less than 18” above the garage floor."

 

After 34 posts:
who's right?
who's wrong?
who's left?

This begins to look like
http://www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/why-dont-you-yes-but/

 

The NEC states one thing but local codes can amend it. So if NJ allows a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit with no gfci for a sump pump then it is the correct method. The NEC does not allow it-- I cn't answer for every states local amendments.

 

Fair enough.
If one rule contradicts the other I'd ask why, but it seems in some cases both can be 'right' at the same time, 'right' meaning it minimizes the danger to life in that local area.

 

I did some reading online and I believe the NJ amendment has reverted 210.8(A)(5) (unfinished basements) to the 2005 NEC which allows a single receptacle to be installed for a dedicated piece of equipment without gfci protection

 

I would ask, Who profits from the confusion surrounding the Code editions (besides Mike Holt)?

 

How does mike holt profit from this????