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Discussion Starter #1
You stopped the thread? I would have done the same in admin's shoes, but I don't wear that brand, lol.

Speedy Petey, you may not realize it now, but you are a Libertarian.

I am a stuck in the mud conservative from hell, but find that we agree on much.

Holler at me dude!
 

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I shut the last one down because it had digressed to a couple people arguing, and nothing more. I also know when you bring in politics and religion, things can get ugly.

I believe its a very relevant topic, and should be discussed. Varying opinions are good, and if you don't like what someone says, then at least agree to disagree.

Lets try it again, and if we can all act like adults, and keep our wits about us, then nobody gets spanked. :cheesygri

Let the games begin!
 

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I took some funky "What party are you" online survey a few weeks ago.
I was put about 3 clicks from Liberal and one click from Libertarian, on the left half of the chart.

I know, I have many disagreements with Conservatives, but also a bit in common. It's weird.

I just don't like when a person has a particular opinion, and someone who disagrees with that opinion puts you in a certain category, based on that one opinion.

I, unfortunately, have many opinions.:cheesygri
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yeah, my square is my backyard. If I'm doing things in my square you don't like, and it ain't unreasonably noisy, let me be. I will let you be, to return the favor.

Both the right and the left look for utopian ideals of getting along. But neither knows how to deal with the breakdowns.

How about if you let me handle it? I know what I can do.
 

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I missed the other illegal thread, but I think we need to learn to deal with illegals. There is no way we can get rid of them, so learn a way to deal with them.

it's just like china; barely anything is american made anymore, and there isnt much we can do about the manufacturing power of china, so we need to improvise.

No matter how strong your principals are about illegals, the reality is that we need to deal with them. You may not necessarily use them as your worker, but others will. I have a soft spot for illegals because my parents WERE illegals. Now they are living the american dream.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
My father is a long time immigrant from Pennsylvania. My mother can trace her roots to the Revolutionary war. Germans is what I come from, mixed with Native American blood, etc..

This country is not great because of immigrants.

This country is great because of the radical idea of its founding.

That ALL men are equal in the eye of his creator.

This is not a guarantee, but a choice.

Choose.
 

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chardog said:
...we need to learn to deal with illegals. There is no way we can get rid of them, it's just like china; barely anything is american made anymore, and there isnt much we can do about the manufacturing power of china.
Now THAT'S a leap in reasoning. The government refuses to address the problem of illegal border crossings, and the subsequent presence of ILLEGAL residents, and that's just like the economic challenge imposed by another nation that modernizes / industrializes its economy. Hmmm... I could see that argument holding water if we were talking about China smuggling goods into the country but, of course, we're not. Given the shipping cost that China has to bear in order to get its products to market, shoudn't Mexico be in a much better position to compete for the American consumer dollar than China? (provided of course that it wanted to). Why doesn't Mexico's manufacturing power rival that of China's?

chardog said:
...the reality is that we need to deal with them. You may not necessarily use them as your worker, but others will.
As long as ILLEGAL workers represent a greater value in the work force (more bang for the buck as it were) than business owners that stand on principal are at a substantial competitive disadvantage and remain at risk of failure. Your comment is as naive as arguing that an 18th century southern plantation owner might try to forego the use of slave labor while still being able to produce cotton at a profit.

chardog said:
I have a soft spot for illegals because my parents WERE illegals.
I have a soft spot for fellow citizens who obey the law. Your parents did the right thing when they took the steps neccesary to legally secure their citizenship. I can only imagine that it was challenging for them to do so and I salute their effort and success. That being said, I'm not embarassed to tell you that if I had my way, the days of ILLEGALS breeding legal offspring would be over. Amendment XIV of the US Constitution, Citizenship rights (Ratified 7/9/1868) says: " 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside...".
Read the words "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
Those who gain illegal entry into the country and subsequently conceal there 'official' presence from law enforcement agencies, in order to maintain residence, clearly aren't offering themselves up as subject to the laws of any jurisdiction. It's shameful that the citizenship provision of the 14th amendment, intended to provide citizenship to former slaves, has been basterdized to benefit those who intentionally violate our nation's most fundamental principal of soveignty - the right to have borders.
 

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Mexicans cannot produce like the chinese. In china, there are no copyright laws and you can do as you want. The money in china is not the same as in mexico. It has less value, therefore american money has more power in china. Shipping is a burden, but when they supply thousands of items in a container, it becomes minute. On top of that, there are tons more people in china, than anywhere else.

As long as ILLEGAL workers represent a greater value in the work force (more bang for the buck as it were) than business owners that stand on principal are at a substantial competitive disadvantage and remain at risk of failure. Your comment is as naive as arguing that an 18th century southern plantation owner might try to forego the use of slave labor while still being able to produce cotton at a profit.
Though it's illegal, the workers are still being paid; no revelation to slavery. The argument is closer to the china products, than to slavery.

From a realist point of view, it's hard to choose a citizen worker over an illegal;

illegals usually have exellent work ethic in comparison, and they're paid less. It's hard finding good workers
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The law PipeGuy refers to basically allows someone on vacation in our country, who has a baby while here, to claim US citizenship for the child. It was intended for freed slaves and is being abused by illegals.

Our Government is allowing them here for similar selfish reasons as my acceptance of them. That is, expedience over consequence.

I selfishly despair at the thought of having to hire US natives.

Two serious negatives I hold against these illegals. One, their inate anti-Americanism which is mainly manifested in their utter refusal to learn our language. And two, as their numbers here increase at an alarming rate, there are more less qualified workers.

Twenty years ago, the few who made it here were hard working and tried to learn the language.

The harder we make it to cross the border, the more likely those who succede in crossing will be more highly motivated.
 

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Today, before a Congressional panel, the former Mexican Foreign Minister spelled out what it'll take to get Mexico's cooperation in securing the border: 1.) Amnesty for all existing Mexican illegals 2.) Billions more financial aid from the U.S. and 3.) allow 5 million more Mexicans to immigrate to the U.S. over the next 10 years.
I haven't heard Vicente Fox disown anything the former FM said. Is anyone else wondering why Mexico wants so many of its 'hard working' citizens to go live elsewhere when it is clearly in need of so much work at home?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah, Pipe, and those demands by the former Mex FM indicate that our government is hostage to its own greed, in that his audacity is tolerated.

Don't get me wrong. I like many Mexicans I meet in the workplace. I've drank beer with them, eaten at their homes and worked at their sides. But our government needs to be honest with us and either make them legal or enforce our laws and deport them. Getting serious at the border would be necessary either way.

If I can, I'd like to confess something to you all. I was once an illegal.

That's right. Many years ago I drove my car without insurance, which made me illegal. How do you think that affected my behavior? Yep, I was the best driver on the road. I lived with a constant concern for obeying the law and taking great care to avoid others who made mistakes.

But what if enforcement officials showed an inability to convict me. How would that affect my behavior?

My point is that the current atmosphere of enforcement regarding illegal aliens is lax. And that it influences their behavior.

The saddest thing is that it is all our own fault. Who did you vote for? Are you happy to pay less for a home built by illegals? Paying less to get your lawn mowed by an American, because he had to cut his price to compete with illegals?

Ignorant greedy expedience of the now, mindless of the future consequences. We are to blame ourselves.

But would somebody here please produce a hard-working American so I don't feel like I need an illegal?
 

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Speedy Petey said:
I took some funky "What party are you" online survey a few weeks ago.
I was put about 3 clicks from Liberal and one click from Libertarian, on the left half of the chart.

I know, I have many disagreements with Conservatives, but also a bit in common. It's weird.

I just don't like when a person has a particular opinion, and someone who disagrees with that opinion puts you in a certain category, based on that one opinion.

I, unfortunately, have many opinions.:cheesygri


Hey, Speedy do you remember where you found that online survey? Besides being a hard working American citzen and Tax payer I guess I need to know Who I'am or my label. Thanks :Thumbs:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Prolly Neal Bortz, radio libertarian jock, and hilarious.
 

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GCMan said:
If I can, I'd like to confess something to you all. I was once an illegal.That's right. Many years ago I drove my car without insurance, which made me illegal. How do you think that affected my behavior? Yep, I was the best driver on the road. I lived with a constant concern for obeying the law and taking great care to avoid others who made mistakes.
LOL :Thumbs: y yo tambien
 

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GCMan said:
The saddest thing is that it is all our own fault. Who did you vote for? We are to blame ourselves.
You know, that's a popular thing to opine about but is it really true? What can you really do, besides wait for the next election cycle, when a candidate that campaigned from one pulpit winds up governing from another. Lots of the stuff that goes on in our legislatures and judiciaries would NEVER fly if put to a vote of the masses. There's no political will for resolute action - just studies and dialogue.

GCMan said:
But would somebody here please produce a hard-working American so I don't feel like I need an illegal?
I guess I have it better than most. I don't feel that way at all.
 

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If y'all haven't been there, I suggest that you go. I'm not talking about the meccas, get outside. If you make it out alive, then you are qualified to speak on this topic. There are people there that would kill you for $2.00. They eat grasshoppers for protein, you don't know what poor is.
 

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Teetorbilt said:
If y'all haven't been there, I suggest that you go...If you make it out alive, then you are qualified to speak on this topic.
Another popular, albeit fallacious, way to paint any given person's input in a discussion as being unqualified or otherwise unwelcome -as if only those with first hand experience are the exclusive arbiters of the truth. Come on Teetor, give me a break.
I don't need to experience abject poverty, or the barbarism that you say it breeds, to know that U.S. borders should be secure or to discuss whether or not ILLEGALS shoud be welcomed because of U.S. economic factors - real or imagined. And if, as you say, much of Mexico is inhabited by murderous thugs, why the hell would we welcome them here? Do you think a change in their economic status will have a material impact on their proclivity for violent or otherwise criminal behavior?

It's pretty clear that the line is being drawn between those who want the U.S. defended against foreign invasion and those who don't. I'm encouraged that some (link) are actually taking action (while I sit here flapping my jowls). I have a feeling it's only going to get uglier in the years ahead. Via con Dios mi hermanos. :Thumbs:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Pipe, I think you understand Teetor's intent at humanizing the situation in Mexico and points south. It seems to have caused your neck hairs to bristle up. To me that means you care. His point about poverty in these third world nations, governed by well dressed thugs, speaks to the vacuum. In other words, these people are desperate, and this is the land of opportunity. What Teetor suggests is that they are willing to die to get here.

As to our politicians, and we who vote for them, don't forget that we live in a democratic republic. Let's say PipeGuy is running for Governor. Teetor likes what he hears and votes for you, as well as the majority of voters. Our system means that you then are free to follow your own path, subject to the wrath of the majority if you stray from the character you represented yourself to be. Unfortunately, such characterizations are defined by a liberal mass media (since conservative viewpoints are abnormal).

The beauty of our system is that you elect the best man for the job, and then let him work as your representative. It is ridiculous to expect him to make the same decisions as you. So the most important thing is to get your issues on the table before an election. If illegal immigration is important to you, you have to find a way to get that issue into the debate.

And, Pipe, I just miss the good old boys we used to have, with regards to hard work. I just don't see any replacements for them but Mexican rancheros. Also keep in mind the pace of utility work is methodical and relatively slow as compared to division three work and unit driven work like drywall and block/brick. When you get past spec division two, the human machine is vastly more important than the excavator. I suggest that your trade would blind you to the changes in the labor market most of us experience.

Adios amigos!

Anyone take a screenshot of PipeGuy speaking Spanish? :cheesygri

hijo de la ...
 

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Rich, I hit Central America about 4 time a year. A couple of fishing trips and a couple with a church. My dad also spent much time down there, starting in the 40's. Not much has changed except for communications, almost every villiage has a TV. They see how we live, their relatives write to them and tell them that our lifestyle is real. Who would not want to emigrate from poverty?
I'm rather curious as to where y'all originated. Did you come over with the Pilgrims because of religious persecution? The Irish, due to famine and poverty? The Chinese, for the same reason. The Jews and Italians to save themselves from Hitler?
We decimated most of the local populace with disease, killing, starvation and relocation and call it 'ours'? Big joke.
One thing that I truly believe in is that we do not own this ground, it was given to us by 'The Great Father' for us to take care of and pass on to our children. They should be schooled as to how to pass it on to their children. Most of us are screwing this up bigtime.
 
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