Frosting
I painted a new exterior in October. Around Christmas as we were finishing the interior, the general contractor and homeowner notice white deposits on the exterior. A few weeks later we cleaned these spots with a tsp solution and power washed, within a week the spots were back. I went last week and there are more deposits. The house is painted with a dark burgandy semi gloss from Ben Moore (two coats) and primed with Sherwin Williams 102 primer. It was not too cold when we painted or too humid. I have never seen this problem and have been in the buisness since I was a tottler, its the family buisness. I think it is frosting, considering the deepness of the color. The solution would be to clean, prime with oil, and repaint. The problem here is cost and responsibility. Have any of you ran into this problem before? How did you solve it? Thanks in advance for the help.
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Trey,
The Pratt and Lambert site offers the following:
Frosting can occur when the paint coating is exposed to moisture and low temperatures. On humid nights, or in the event of rain or fog, moisture will condense on a freshly painted surface and start to penetrate. As the water penetrates the film, trace elements in the film transport to the surface. These elements are water-soluble and can be removed by simply washing the area with warm water. Wait until the surface has cured before washing.
I have not experienced this but I do have about 2 cents worth I can give you. (By the way, did the generals specs call for using a SW primer and topcoated with BM?)
Anyway, you may want to reconsider your solution of cleaning, priming with oil and repainting at this time. Unless this is a small area it may become more costly than it needs to be.
I would go back to square one and wash the area with warm water as recommended. Allow it to dry and inspect.
If the deposits remain on the surface, notify the homeowner and let him know that you plan on rectifying the situation. Next, I would approach the General and between the two of you hash it out. This may be the time to reprime and repaint.
The bottom line is "we" need to make the situation right. Whatever it takes the homeowner deserves a solution ASAP.
Hopefully the General will meet you half way if it becomes costly. Hope this helps.
Good luck.
Tom Rohland
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.
The Pratt and Lambert site offers the following:
Frosting can occur when the paint coating is exposed to moisture and low temperatures. On humid nights, or in the event of rain or fog, moisture will condense on a freshly painted surface and start to penetrate. As the water penetrates the film, trace elements in the film transport to the surface. These elements are water-soluble and can be removed by simply washing the area with warm water. Wait until the surface has cured before washing.
I have not experienced this but I do have about 2 cents worth I can give you. (By the way, did the generals specs call for using a SW primer and topcoated with BM?)
Anyway, you may want to reconsider your solution of cleaning, priming with oil and repainting at this time. Unless this is a small area it may become more costly than it needs to be.
I would go back to square one and wash the area with warm water as recommended. Allow it to dry and inspect.
If the deposits remain on the surface, notify the homeowner and let him know that you plan on rectifying the situation. Next, I would approach the General and between the two of you hash it out. This may be the time to reprime and repaint.
The bottom line is "we" need to make the situation right. Whatever it takes the homeowner deserves a solution ASAP.
Hopefully the General will meet you half way if it becomes costly. Hope this helps.
Good luck.
Tom Rohland
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.
Trey said:I painted a new exterior in October. Around Christmas as we were finishing the interior, the general contractor and homeowner notice white deposits on the exterior. A few weeks later we cleaned these spots with a tsp solution and power washed, within a week the spots were back. I went last week and there are more deposits. The house is painted with a dark burgandy semi gloss from Ben Moore (two coats) and primed with Sherwin Williams 102 primer. It was not too cold when we painted or too humid. I have never seen this problem and have been in the buisness since I was a tottler, its the family buisness. I think it is frosting, considering the deepness of the color. The solution would be to clean, prime with oil, and repaint. The problem here is cost and responsibility. Have any of you ran into this problem before? How did you solve it? Thanks in advance for the help.
Tom, thanks.
No I generally use Sherwin Williams Duration, as a matter of fact thats what we used on the trim, and it looks great. The homeowner had painted with Ben Moore before and asked if I could use Ben moore for the dark red siding, and me being the type of guy I am said sure. It was primed with Sherwin Williams the day she asked for Ben Moore paint thus the different manufactures.
I'll definately try cleaning again and hope for no more problems, but I am not very optomistic. Like I said the homeowner is extremely nice and understanding, and a realator that I work with regualarly, so you can bet your last dollar, that we'll get it right.
No I generally use Sherwin Williams Duration, as a matter of fact thats what we used on the trim, and it looks great. The homeowner had painted with Ben Moore before and asked if I could use Ben moore for the dark red siding, and me being the type of guy I am said sure. It was primed with Sherwin Williams the day she asked for Ben Moore paint thus the different manufactures.
I'll definately try cleaning again and hope for no more problems, but I am not very optomistic. Like I said the homeowner is extremely nice and understanding, and a realator that I work with regualarly, so you can bet your last dollar, that we'll get it right.
Trey,
Duration! Good stuff? Lots of hype. I hope it lives up to it. I haven't used it yet. Pretty pricey. By the way, what are you paying per gallon, fiver?
I read you loud and clear and understand passifying the homeowner and the request for using BM topcoat. (I'm sure you're aware that paint colors can be matched from one manufacturer to another.)
However, I try to keep all products consistant. Normally my paint system will consist of primer, caulk and paint from the same manufacturer.
In order for the manufacturer to uphold his end of the bargain, he wants us to use his products from start to finish.
I've had similar requests and will actually give the homeowner their choice. I let them know that I prefer keeping the system consistant and try to sell them on the benefit of doing so. Of course some people are set in their ways and want it their way.
If that is the case, I'll have them sign a disclaimer that limits my liability. Do you do that?
Good Luck. Keep in touch and let us know how it goes.
Tom Rohland
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.
Duration! Good stuff? Lots of hype. I hope it lives up to it. I haven't used it yet. Pretty pricey. By the way, what are you paying per gallon, fiver?
I read you loud and clear and understand passifying the homeowner and the request for using BM topcoat. (I'm sure you're aware that paint colors can be matched from one manufacturer to another.)
However, I try to keep all products consistant. Normally my paint system will consist of primer, caulk and paint from the same manufacturer.
In order for the manufacturer to uphold his end of the bargain, he wants us to use his products from start to finish.
I've had similar requests and will actually give the homeowner their choice. I let them know that I prefer keeping the system consistant and try to sell them on the benefit of doing so. Of course some people are set in their ways and want it their way.
If that is the case, I'll have them sign a disclaimer that limits my liability. Do you do that?
Good Luck. Keep in touch and let us know how it goes.
Tom Rohland
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.
The Personal Attention Your Home Deserves
Trey said:Tom, thanks.
No I generally use Sherwin Williams Duration, as a matter of fact thats what we used on the trim, and it looks great. The homeowner had painted with Ben Moore before and asked if I could use Ben moore for the dark red siding, and me being the type of guy I am said sure. It was primed with Sherwin Williams the day she asked for Ben Moore paint thus the different manufacturers.
I'll definately try cleaning again and hope for no more problems, but I am not very optomistic. Like I said the homeowner is extremely nice and understanding, and a realator that I work with regualarly, so you can bet your last dollar, that we'll get it right.
Tom,
Yes I wanted and recommended Duration, my price is $38.75 a gallon, I believe it's worth it, covers like a dream and no problems yet (knocking on wood). I disclaimered against fading we are talking a very dark lots of tint color but I didn't disclaimer about something I never even heard of.
Here's the update I bought all my info and pictures to the Ben Moore dealer who has been around forever and he has never seen or heard of it before and was shocked at my photos. He is getting in touch with Ben Moore and will get back to me.
Yes I wanted and recommended Duration, my price is $38.75 a gallon, I believe it's worth it, covers like a dream and no problems yet (knocking on wood). I disclaimered against fading we are talking a very dark lots of tint color but I didn't disclaimer about something I never even heard of.
Here's the update I bought all my info and pictures to the Ben Moore dealer who has been around forever and he has never seen or heard of it before and was shocked at my photos. He is getting in touch with Ben Moore and will get back to me.
Wow. I hope your customers are impressed with the extent you are going to to remedy this.
Trey said:Here's an update: A Ben Moore rep looked at the house and he thinks its surfactant leeching, the worse he has ever seen. He will meet me out there monday with some soap and we will see if it cleans.
Humble, I hope so too. The GC is probally the best builder I have ever worked with. Also the home owner is a realator for one of the last production builders I work for. To top that the house is beautiful. Great design, great lot, and this problem withstanding a great paint job. Also I have never seen this before, and it will help my buisness by gaining education. Education in our buisness can be more expensive than a Harvard degree, if it wasn't for all the problems we have had, we would not be as good of painters as we are. I'm probally sounding like a dim witted optomist, but I'm just trying to make lemonade out of lemons.
Trey,
Surfactant Leaching!
I experienced this one a few years back. It was a cool, damp evening and I continued painting without regarding the conditions. (Rookie!)
The following day I noticed it on a large T-11 gable. But instead of white deposits as you described, mine were brownish /tannish and blotchy.
I learned from my paint rep that this has no adverse effect on the long term durability of the paint. Even though it can affect the appearance of the job, it should naturally weather off in a couple of months. And it certainly did.
If you still decide to clean it, try hand cleaning and use only water and a sponge. You might be surprised that it rinses right off.
Good luck and keep up the great customer service.
Tom Rohland
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.
Surfactant Leaching!
I experienced this one a few years back. It was a cool, damp evening and I continued painting without regarding the conditions. (Rookie!)
The following day I noticed it on a large T-11 gable. But instead of white deposits as you described, mine were brownish /tannish and blotchy.
I learned from my paint rep that this has no adverse effect on the long term durability of the paint. Even though it can affect the appearance of the job, it should naturally weather off in a couple of months. And it certainly did.
If you still decide to clean it, try hand cleaning and use only water and a sponge. You might be surprised that it rinses right off.
Good luck and keep up the great customer service.
Tom Rohland
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.
Trey said:Here's an update: A Ben Moore rep looked at the house and he thinks its surfactant leeching, the worse he has ever seen. He will meet me out there monday with some soap and we will see if it cleans.
Tom,
You are half right. Yes usally it is brownish and rinses off and is caused by the excessive humidity. But this is white and waxy, Ben moore says because of the colorants and the amount of colorants, the dry time was prolonged and the mornining dew is our most likely culprit. He told me that they use detergent based binders so water alone won't cut it, thats why it does go away and a few days later reappears. So he has a special soap that should break down the detergents. The good news is yes the paint film is fine, he told me it was one of the best paint jobs he has ever seen, I had to laugh at that one. He does have a point though, the house is as dark burgandy as you can get a can of paint and it is semigloss and there is no flashing or splotchy spots anywhere the house is probally 4000 sq. ft. of floor space with all 4 sides painted. Hopefully by tommorow night we will now how to proceed further.
You are half right. Yes usally it is brownish and rinses off and is caused by the excessive humidity. But this is white and waxy, Ben moore says because of the colorants and the amount of colorants, the dry time was prolonged and the mornining dew is our most likely culprit. He told me that they use detergent based binders so water alone won't cut it, thats why it does go away and a few days later reappears. So he has a special soap that should break down the detergents. The good news is yes the paint film is fine, he told me it was one of the best paint jobs he has ever seen, I had to laugh at that one. He does have a point though, the house is as dark burgandy as you can get a can of paint and it is semigloss and there is no flashing or splotchy spots anywhere the house is probally 4000 sq. ft. of floor space with all 4 sides painted. Hopefully by tommorow night we will now how to proceed further.
Yea I agree. I am a rookie and never would have heard of surfactant leaching unless it happened to us. One more reason I will continue to come back here.
ProWallGuy said:Great info in this thread, hope it turns out all right in the end.
Good luck :Thumbs:
UPDATE
Yesterday late afternoon. The Ben Moore rep, the homeowners, the GC, and I met at the house. We washed some spots with soap, and they disappered but I will have to check in a few days to make sure they don't do thier usual reapperaring trick. The homeowners did not seem to impressed with the Ben Moore rep though, maybe its in my head, but I think I was better offf before. I agreed to power wash a small wall on the house were there is no fancy landscaping. I'm going to run soap threw the chemical injection and rinse welll, and pray for the best. I'll have anaother update Thursday or Friday.
Yesterday late afternoon. The Ben Moore rep, the homeowners, the GC, and I met at the house. We washed some spots with soap, and they disappered but I will have to check in a few days to make sure they don't do thier usual reapperaring trick. The homeowners did not seem to impressed with the Ben Moore rep though, maybe its in my head, but I think I was better offf before. I agreed to power wash a small wall on the house were there is no fancy landscaping. I'm going to run soap threw the chemical injection and rinse welll, and pray for the best. I'll have anaother update Thursday or Friday.
Well here is another update:
The spots we cleaned are not clen at all. Monday we will try power washing a small wall (I am not very optomistic) and brush out a few boards of siding to see if the leeching will come through another coat of paint (this would not suprise me). The general contractor is still behind me, and the homeowner and I are still friends, but I am at the end of my rope.
The spots we cleaned are not clen at all. Monday we will try power washing a small wall (I am not very optomistic) and brush out a few boards of siding to see if the leeching will come through another coat of paint (this would not suprise me). The general contractor is still behind me, and the homeowner and I are still friends, but I am at the end of my rope.
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
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