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In south Louisiana framers aren't licensed. The only crafts requiring licensing is hvac, plumbing, and electrical. I'm looking for advice on how to go about posing the need for change in the framing industry. Framers need to be licensed through the state imo. Why? Think about it! We get it out of the ground. When we set a form, plumbers and electricians pull measurements off of our boards. If we are wrong, they are wrong. Furthermore, everything on a house or project finishes or hangs to what we put up. Concrete sets inside our form. Wire, sheetrock, pex pipe, everything hangs on studs, ceiling joist, or rafters. To me nothing is more important than the structure of a home or project. Yet, it has gotten to the point of being the most under-appreciated part of a project. The pay has been beaten down to nothing. Mechanical has been able to keep their prices where they need to be bc it is state requirement for them to be licensed in their field. They have to renew the license every year and take continuing ed classes. Why isn't it this way for framers? It should be! How can I go about getting it changed? I want my prices to go back where they need to be and make it harder on those who kill what use to be a profitable business in the land of the free and home of the brave.
 

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nailamatic said:
In south Louisiana framers aren't licensed. The only crafts requiring licensing is hvac, plumbing, and electrical. I'm looking for advice on how to go about posing the need for change in the framing industry. Framers need to be licensed through the state imo. Why? Think about it! We get it out of the ground. When we set a form, plumbers and electricians pull measurements off of our boards. If we are wrong, they are wrong. Furthermore, everything on a house or project finishes or hangs to what we put up. Concrete sets inside our form. Wire, sheetrock, pex pipe, everything hangs on studs, ceiling joist, or rafters. To me nothing is more important than the structure of a home or project. Yet, it has gotten to the point of being the most under-appreciated part of a project. The pay has been beaten down to nothing. Mechanical has been able to keep their prices where they need to be bc it is state requirement for them to be licensed in their field. They have to renew the license every year and take continuing ed classes. Why isn't it this way for framers? It should be! How can I go about getting it changed? I want my prices to go back where they need to be and make it harder on those who kill what use to be a profitable business in the land of the free and home of the brave.
Why can't the free market determine who's good enough to stay in business? Why does the Government need to determine this? A company can only do Sh!tty work for so long before no one will hire them. Do you think that if they require a license it will bring down the supply of Framing contractors so up goes the price? Most of the time my price is higher then the other guy, my customer went with me because they felt more comfortable with my experience, references and how I presented myself.

A composite decking company I work with quite often did a market survey on what people looked for when buying a deck. Price was number three on the list for importance. Number one was quality and how long it would last and number two was low maintenance. I think the same goes for anything your selling. Quality is something people will pay a premium for. Set yourself apart from the competition.
 

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i agree that there needs to be some regulation, but also agree with the other guy that "you can only do ****ty work for so long before no one will hire you". read my thread i posted "when sticking to your prices pays off". i've dealt with the same **** the past few years here and now everything is coming full circle and everyone's ran through the cheap framing crews realized you get what you pay for and are ringing our phones off the hook right now.
 

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KemoSabe
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Why can't the free market determine who's good enough to stay in business? Why does the Government need to determine this? A company can only do Sh!tty work for so long before no one will hire them. Do you think that if they require a license it will bring down the supply of Framing contractors so up goes the price? Most of the time my price is higher then the other guy, my customer went with me because they felt more comfortable with my experience, references and how I presented myself.

A composite decking company I work with quite often did a market survey on what people looked for when buying a deck. Price was number three on the list for importance. Number one was quality and how long it would last and number two was low maintenance. I think the same goes for anything your selling. Quality is something people will pay a premium for. Set yourself apart from the competition.
Market surveys can be slanted by surveying a specific market. If you survey a multi millionaire who's building a 250,000 dollar outdoor living space , you will get a different result than you will if you survey a single mother of 4 working 2 jobs and needs to repair a door that was kicked in and all of her possessions went missing.

I realize that's extreme, but you see my point. I live in an area where many mortgages are upside down, many homes are being short saled and many more are in forclosure. The folks who aren't in trouble and are looking to do home improvements are very concerned with over-improving their home. They will spend for the things they want, but they will be shopping price. With work in short supply and career contractors scrambling to feed their kids and stay in their own homes, it's a buyers market and if the price ain't right, it ain't selling.

It's sad but true and it's the same in the homebuilding market here.
 

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The Duke
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I'm in for licensing as long as they attach structural design to it in the form of certified courses. Everything is so willy nilly nowadays. People just want you to throw the shell up so everyone else can get in there and do "the real work".

It's discouraging to listen to the general opinion of framers for 20 years and still have some desire to go out and do it day after day. It's tough work and you need to be good at it. There is no in between.
 

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The issue I see with licensing is that yes you can say it helps protect the consumer. But the way I see it you hardly have the guy with the license doing all the actual work. He's off bidding jobs and selling while you're going to have the exact same guys banging out the frames. There is good licensed contractors and there are bad ones. All they gotta do is make it so it passes inspection and not get too many complaints against them.
 

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I fully agree that there needs to be licensing in Louisiana. You are talking about an area that has fairly frequent hurricane strikes. I get the idea of a free market, but within that market you will have those who do substandard work that leads to damage and injury. Licensing and proper inspections won't eliminate this, but it goes a long way.
 

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I agree also. Licensing is a step in the right direction. The inspectors should pull there heads outta there arses too and fail jobs that are done wrong, make it right. It would help to up the prices. Doing good work will help too but when you have too many hacks running around it keeps the prices down. Even when one goes bellyup there are 3 more waiting in line because there is no licensing;). Im a drywaller and have to carry a couple licenses:blink:
 

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KemoSabe
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If inspectors failed every job that was sub-standard, they would subject themselves to almost double the work load in re-inspects. The inspectors I'm familiar with aren't that ambitious.
 

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Regulations ultimately end up driving up costs but not necessarily profits. Liscence will at least give consumers a place to check on who they hire. At the end of the day it is about the client and how to best serve them.
 

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Market surveys can be slanted by surveying a specific market. If you survey a multi millionaire who's building a 250,000 dollar outdoor living space , you will get a different result than you will if you survey a single mother of 4 working 2 jobs and needs to repair a door that was kicked in and all of her possessions went missing.

I realize that's extreme, but you see my point. I live in an area where many mortgages are upside down, many homes are being short saled and many more are in forclosure. The folks who aren't in trouble and are looking to do home improvements are very concerned with over-improving their home. They will spend for the things they want, but they will be shopping price. With work in short supply and career contractors scrambling to feed their kids and stay in their own homes, it's a buyers market and if the price ain't right, it ain't selling.

It's sad but true and it's the same in the homebuilding market here.
The reason many mortgages are upside down and many homes in foreclosure, because some of these people shouldn't be in these homes to begin with. When things were good Mortgage brokers fixed mortgages and put people in the houses they cannot afford. It was easy to do at the time, because nobody gave a s^*t...
People were buying houses paying double it's value, they had bidding wars and buying home for more than they were listed (I never seen anything like it). You couldn't buy a falling down garage for less then 300k... it was out of control.
After everything came to an end and all the prices dropped and banks stopped giving money... people who can afford to buy a house cannot get a mortgage for it, because of that.
People who stuck in the house with payments over the top, or they lost a job because the company sold out, and all the major Corporations started to close up branches around here (Merrill lynch, Johnson and Jonson, etc) talking about 2,000-5000 people lost theirs jobs or took some kind of a package deal and other people in the same situation, who probably got stuck trying to refinance or sell theirs homes for which they paid 600k, now only worth 480k and when they cannot get refinancing, they let the homes go to short sales or foreclosures.

I don't have to go to far, I have a few friends who got into 2.3m dollar homes which now only worth 1.4-1.6m and they're crying the blues.

As contracting business goes, you're right, many contractors sit home and sucking theirs thumbs because they cannot get money they use to get. The biggest problem I see in that is as you know NJ has a huge population of people who come here from India. The only people who buy an average priced home today which cost anywhere between 600k-2m (in my surrounding area) are people of Indian or Chinese descent. They're the vast majority of people who do major Home-improvements today and they don't want to pay for quality and they don't care how you going to do it as long as the price is right and they will hire anyone to do the work.
They call Professional contractors to get the prices, then they go on Craig list and get half fast contractors or unlicensed trade to do the work. They file for building permit as HO and they will be doing theirs own work, and when permit is issued, they bring all unlicensed trade to do the work... and this is what is killing this industry in our state.

If I look back, in the last 20 years, I haven't done a single job for people of Indian decent, but I gave a few hundreds estimates and did a s^*t load of running around trying to get the job... For the last 5 years I stopped returning phone calls, and if it happens I answer the phone, I tell them I am already booked for this year and if you don't find anyone call me next year (just to be polite), and every contractor I know will tell you the same thing.
 

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we had the same exact thing happen last year with Indian people who asked us to price a job on their house. gave them the price and never heard from them again. they just wanted our numbers. scumbags.
 

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loneframer said:
Market surveys can be slanted by surveying a specific market. If you survey a multi millionaire who's building a 250,000 dollar outdoor living space , you will get a different result than you will if you survey a single mother of 4 working 2 jobs and needs to repair a door that was kicked in and all of her possessions went missing. I realize that's extreme, but you see my point. I live in an area where many mortgages are upside down, many homes are being short saled and many more are in forclosure. The folks who aren't in trouble and are looking to do home improvements are very concerned with over-improving their home. They will spend for the things they want, but they will be shopping price. With work in short supply and career contractors scrambling to feed their kids and stay in their own homes, it's a buyers market and if the price ain't right, it ain't selling. It's sad but true and it's the same in the homebuilding market here.
You are correct, Lone, demographics are a big part of this also, I'm in an area where a poor single mother of four could not afford to live.
 

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Well hell why don't you all move out here to Cali you can get all regulations and licensing you want. It's getting very difficult to get a GC license here. FBI check, DOJ check, 5 hour test, with a little of every trade on it. Including a test on the law. It took me about 3 months back in 02 to get licensed. I went ahead a started framing homes because I couldn't wait. I had two homes almost completed by the time I finally got my license.
 

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So this is why I don't get

Why have anyone licensed at all?
If you have a license and still have an inspection what's the point?

All they do is make people go under ground, not pull permits and not get inspections.

So not only do I not agree with the op, I think they should go the complete other way, not that it will ever happen.
 

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the thing around here is, these framing sub contractors who are licensed and insured get the jobs subbed to them and then THEY sub them out to unlicensed uninsured all Spanish crews for like $3/sq ft and just make money on top. so there's really no way to regulate unless you have someone coming to the jobsites on a daily basis asking to see proof of license/insurance from whoever's running the crew
 
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