do you know if i can move outlets and switches without electricians license and without permits and the same with HVAC?No. What is allowed in my jurisdiction, or any one elses, is most likely completely different than what is allowed in yours.
As far as other advice, I don't know how qualified or experienced you are, so I don't know if saying "Paint before you install cabinets", or, "Drywall goes with the light side facing out", is helpful, or insulting.
First full house remodeling project
Hi everyone! If anyone have a moment and may help with advice I would be very thankful to you,
I have been in the trade for about five years, mostly worked for contractors doing smaller jobs, did a few rehabs and so on.. Now i am working on my own an just landed full house remodeling for a guy who flips houses. We are looking to replace a kitchen, put new floors, may be new windows, repaint walls and trim, move some walls and outlets. May be those have more experience can give me some advice on organization of the job, what to look out for, just tips in general.
For example ( i am probably going to call municipality and see what they have to say) but meanwhile do you know if i can move outlets and switches without electricians license and without permits and the same with HVAC?
So if any of you got a spare moment and can give a little advice i would really appreciate it. May be even on what is it better not to touch in that remodel, i will get a post with pictures going in a day or so as well.
Thanks to everyone in advance and if i can be of any help, just let me know!
I have been in the trade for about five years, mostly worked for contractors doing smaller jobs, did a few rehabs and so on.. Now i am working on my own an just landed full house remodeling for a guy who flips houses. We are looking to replace a kitchen, put new floors, may be new windows, repaint walls and trim, move some walls and outlets. May be those have more experience can give me some advice on organization of the job, what to look out for, just tips in general.
For example ( i am probably going to call municipality and see what they have to say) but meanwhile do you know if i can move outlets and switches without electricians license and without permits and the same with HVAC?
So if any of you got a spare moment and can give a little advice i would really appreciate it. May be even on what is it better not to touch in that remodel, i will get a post with pictures going in a day or so as well.
Thanks to everyone in advance and if i can be of any help, just let me know!
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Flippers are notorius for being slow/no payers. What does your contract say? Are you in front on money or behind?
I've never flipped a house, but this is what I'd be concerned about:
- Have a contract with the flipper with a payment schedule
- Find out what permits are necessary and pull them. Have qualified trades perform the work that you're not experienced with.
- have a conversation with the flipper up front about where you are willing to cut corners and where you are not (permitting, using licensed subs, any safety issues, etc..)
- Have a contract with the flipper with a payment schedule
Outline the schedule so that you get paid before you do the work (ie get a deposit) not do the work and then get paid for it. They make their money if the house sells. If it doesn't sell they lose, so get paid first. Don't let them smooth talk you, you have to be very firm on this.
- Find out what permits are necessary and pull them. Have qualified trades perform the work that you're not experienced with.
- have a conversation with the flipper up front about where you are willing to cut corners and where you are not (permitting, using licensed subs, any safety issues, etc..)
Before doing anything, produce detailed plans of what will be done.
It seems like you don't know enough to do those plans. If that is the case, hire someone who knows.
You need to know exactly what the finished product will be prior to starting anything. If you need to replace a roof, that must be known. Even if it's just roof repairs, caulking, fixing vents, etc. you need to know. This needs to be detailed in the plans.
If you will move walls you need to know what the structural ramifications are. Foundations? Support for loads imposed from above? You need to know the effects on the HVAC system.
If you are doing electrical work, are you qualified to know all the implications? Would you be overloading a circuit? Is the existing aluminum? Is it old cloth covered cable that has deteriorated? Will you know if the service needs replacement? If it does, are you qualified to do it?
When you renovate the kitchen and bathrooms are you qualified to work with a variety of plumbing materials? Will you know what to do when you find the water pipe is corroded galvanized and you cannot connect to it? Can you deal with old and possibly leaking cast iron waste systems?
Effective remodeling/renovation is far more complicated than new construction. That's probably why it is so often done poorly and their are so many failures. The amount of knowledge needed to successfully renovate an old building is far beyond that of many, possibly most builders. It seems you are going into this without understanding what you don't know. Generally this doesn't turn out well.
It seems like you don't know enough to do those plans. If that is the case, hire someone who knows.
You need to know exactly what the finished product will be prior to starting anything. If you need to replace a roof, that must be known. Even if it's just roof repairs, caulking, fixing vents, etc. you need to know. This needs to be detailed in the plans.
If you will move walls you need to know what the structural ramifications are. Foundations? Support for loads imposed from above? You need to know the effects on the HVAC system.
If you are doing electrical work, are you qualified to know all the implications? Would you be overloading a circuit? Is the existing aluminum? Is it old cloth covered cable that has deteriorated? Will you know if the service needs replacement? If it does, are you qualified to do it?
When you renovate the kitchen and bathrooms are you qualified to work with a variety of plumbing materials? Will you know what to do when you find the water pipe is corroded galvanized and you cannot connect to it? Can you deal with old and possibly leaking cast iron waste systems?
Effective remodeling/renovation is far more complicated than new construction. That's probably why it is so often done poorly and their are so many failures. The amount of knowledge needed to successfully renovate an old building is far beyond that of many, possibly most builders. It seems you are going into this without understanding what you don't know. Generally this doesn't turn out well.
Flippers value speed over quality, get used to that.
I suggest you just charge an hourly wage, because at some point, you are going to want to leave, or he is going to want to get rid of you because he found someone cheaper.
I suggest you just charge an hourly wage, because at some point, you are going to want to leave, or he is going to want to get rid of you because he found someone cheaper.
I have done 7 flips with 2 diffrent guys both thought they were contractors. They want fast cheap and quality,, those dont go together, as the other guys said git $ up front ,dont want to take any wind from your sails just the facts...
I guess partially my question sounded a bit foolish, i was tired when i wrote it, so my sincere apologies for that ..) i have done a lot of remodeling work before and outsourced or researched what i don't know.. And I have always completed my projects successfully and have never failed a single inspection so far. I guess what i meant is if there are ways around small changes(like moving outlet 20 inches away without inspections) and some advices to make work go smoother. Live and learn, there is always more to know if you are ready to accept knowledge. Thanks to everyone for participation.
As far as what you'll need permits for, electric-wise, only your local Building Department can answer that. A quick phone call to them should clear things up. :thumbsup:
Yeap, doing it monday morning. Thanks.
With flipping and permits, there is a very fine line between remodeling and repair work. There are ways of getting away without needing a permit if you classify the project accordingly, HOWEVER, using this technique as leverage in the situation can cause certain code violations to be missed.
Like if you gut out the kitchen and update all of the fixtures and appliances, generally speaking you can do that without a permit. But in the process if you shift or damage the exhaust flue for the water heater or the furnace, you might have created a CO leak that does not get discovered for several months.
Like if you gut out the kitchen and update all of the fixtures and appliances, generally speaking you can do that without a permit. But in the process if you shift or damage the exhaust flue for the water heater or the furnace, you might have created a CO leak that does not get discovered for several months.
Get out while you can, you already lost money and you don't even know it.
Get out while you can, you already lost money and you don't even know it.
ABSOLUTEY....!!!! ranteso hit the nail on the head.
If you're a newbie, DON'T TAKE A BIG JOB LIKE THIS.
Edit: And by the way, I know you said you had been working in the business for five years, but drawing a check from someone else is 1,000% different than working for yourself and being responsible for the financial responsibilities of a remodel.
Sounds like too much can go wrong. Good quote that I have read on here "I've never lost a dime on a job that I didn't get"
Except for the last three quotes that were unqualified negative... everyone here gave you good advice,... those three sound like O'Bama who unequivalently used "investor" as a derogatory term.
Many flippers take a distress condition, brought on by fraudulent disreputable buyers, and restore value.... it's that phucking simple.
(Yes... I do alot of flips)
Yes... KNOW who you are working for... there are many disreputable under capitalized,flippers.... be cautious.
As to permitted/unpermitted work, there is a fine line as to each building departments enforcemenjt. I believe the Nec would conclude that if you move electrical, a permit is required....
Bottom line, whether permitted or not,.....do it to current code is my recommenation.
Clearly, when you are rehabbing, you are cost conscious.... but build to the prevailing quality of the neighborhood, make it clean,neutral, an add a couple of attractions... maybe an attractive vessel sink, a fancy kitchen faucet, decorative door hardware, I'm fond of decora switches/receps...... I call it low cost/value modernizing.
Good luck
Best
Peter
Many flippers take a distress condition, brought on by fraudulent disreputable buyers, and restore value.... it's that phucking simple.
(Yes... I do alot of flips)
Yes... KNOW who you are working for... there are many disreputable under capitalized,flippers.... be cautious.
As to permitted/unpermitted work, there is a fine line as to each building departments enforcemenjt. I believe the Nec would conclude that if you move electrical, a permit is required....
Bottom line, whether permitted or not,.....do it to current code is my recommenation.
Clearly, when you are rehabbing, you are cost conscious.... but build to the prevailing quality of the neighborhood, make it clean,neutral, an add a couple of attractions... maybe an attractive vessel sink, a fancy kitchen faucet, decorative door hardware, I'm fond of decora switches/receps...... I call it low cost/value modernizing.
Good luck
Best
Peter
Thanks, yeah with the last three i kind of started being disappointed with this forum) thought it is for sharing the knowledge and ideas..)Except for the last three quotes that were unqualified negative... everyone here gave you good advice,... those three sound like O'Bama who unequivalently used "investor" as a derogatory term.
Many flippers take a distress condition, brought on by fraudulent disreputable buyers, and restore value.... it's that phucking simple.
(Yes... I do alot of flips)
Yes... KNOW who you are working for... there are many disreputable under capitalized,flippers.... be cautious.
As to permitted/unpermitted work, there is a fine line as to each building departments enforcemenjt. I believe the Nec would conclude that if you move electrical, a permit is required....
Bottom line, whether permitted or not,.....do it to current code is my recommenation.
Clearly, when you are rehabbing, you are cost conscious.... but build to the prevailing quality of the neighborhood, make it clean,neutral, an add a couple of attractions... maybe an attractive vessel sink, a fancy kitchen faucet, decorative door hardware, I'm fond of decora switches/receps...... I call it low cost/value modernizing.
Good luck
Best
Peter
I worked with that guy before with no problems and i he havegot money to pull it off with no problems..
I found electrician, so will let him move outlets and install recessed lights, now just still not sure what to do about plumbing and tiling in the bathrooms i called up building department they said permits are needed but i am thinking would it really be necessary just for the vanity and bath tub replacement. I did it before plenty of times but not for a resale properties( working for myself), can you may be recommend something to read or just throw in a few suggestions how to go aboutpermits and inspections? And now i have another client who is attorney but he does not want to pull permits.. Can it hurtme somehow at all? Thanks and sorry for a lot of questions..
When i asked a local BI about permitting he told me if I wasn't doing something structural or moving framing or anything to impose egress a building permit was not needed only mechanical permits/inspections ie. Plumbing, electrical etc. But things may be different where you live. There was an inspector in the area that I live who made you pull a permit to replace shingles. No inspection just needed a permit. Don't know why, I don't do roofs so I never had that issue.
APS.... The way each building dept/jurisdiction treats compliance/requirements/ enforcement varies wildly..... There is a fair degree of AHJ subjectiveness involved in many discressionary calls.
That may be what is confusing you, and why most nobody on here could give you a definitive answer in regard to your area/ county/ jurisdoction.
I would probably ask other contractors in the area.... of course you could ask your building department, but then you would have no discretion left of your own.... if you understand what I am saying.
Yes.... if I was to move DWV, my department would tell me I need a permit... if I was to just replace a sink or a tub or new shower stall they would not normally require a permit.... although one guy might argue a new shower pan requires a "no leak" inspection.(Tiling around here is decorative only and I don't think anyone would contend permitting is required.)
And obviously, once you ask the question, they no longer have the discretion to overlook minor issues..... ie where they can not tell you you do not need a permit/inspection, but they overlook it/ don't enforce it all the time.
My building department in my county is very reasonable and not out to just make money.... they actually are concerned primarily with safety and material issues.
However, my daughters building depatment in Cali, has an amendment that allows them to come into every house that goes to sale, and backcharge, with 50% penalties, for any unpermitted work that is not refleccted in their records. (I'm sure their interest is predicated on revenue generation, not just permit fees, but also tax value increases.
Sorta interesting, but for these controls, I've never seen an area with more unpermitted (and actually disguized) work.
Also interesting, although the AHJ has to enforce these laws, he is damn smart and most reasonable and well motivated and helpfull.
Go figure.....
Bottom line..... Ask around and get a feel of the policies of your department....
Sorry,,, there is not a definitive answer.
That may be what is confusing you, and why most nobody on here could give you a definitive answer in regard to your area/ county/ jurisdoction.
I would probably ask other contractors in the area.... of course you could ask your building department, but then you would have no discretion left of your own.... if you understand what I am saying.
Yes.... if I was to move DWV, my department would tell me I need a permit... if I was to just replace a sink or a tub or new shower stall they would not normally require a permit.... although one guy might argue a new shower pan requires a "no leak" inspection.(Tiling around here is decorative only and I don't think anyone would contend permitting is required.)
And obviously, once you ask the question, they no longer have the discretion to overlook minor issues..... ie where they can not tell you you do not need a permit/inspection, but they overlook it/ don't enforce it all the time.
My building department in my county is very reasonable and not out to just make money.... they actually are concerned primarily with safety and material issues.
However, my daughters building depatment in Cali, has an amendment that allows them to come into every house that goes to sale, and backcharge, with 50% penalties, for any unpermitted work that is not refleccted in their records. (I'm sure their interest is predicated on revenue generation, not just permit fees, but also tax value increases.
Sorta interesting, but for these controls, I've never seen an area with more unpermitted (and actually disguized) work.
Also interesting, although the AHJ has to enforce these laws, he is damn smart and most reasonable and well motivated and helpfull.
Go figure.....
Bottom line..... Ask around and get a feel of the policies of your department....
Sorry,,, there is not a definitive answer.
I once worked with a house flipper and everything went smoothly until he was never able to sell the house. Mind you, this is when the recession started happening so he blamed me for crappy work as to why he couldnt sell the house. Threatened to sue, take me to court, etc etc.. we settled it.
The Building Dept said you need permits. So you need them. Period.i called up building department they said permits are needed but i am thinking would it really be necessary just for the vanity and bath tub replacement. I did it before plenty of times but not for a resale properties( working for myself), can you may be recommend something to read or just throw in a few suggestions how to go aboutpermits and inspections? And now i have another client who is attorney but he does not want to pull permits.. Can it hurtme somehow at all? Thanks and sorry for a lot of questions..
If you decide that you want to skirt the rules, and do as you damn well please, fine. But don't ask a bunch of internet yay-hoos to tell you that you'll be O.K., and the Building Dept is full of sh!t. :no:
As far as "going about permits and inspections", pretty simple. You go to the building dept, pull permits, and call for inspections.
As far as your attorney client, if you choose to do unpermitted work, fine, do it. Just don't broadcast it on the interweb.
And I'm sure your attorney client will never try to screw you. :whistling
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